3rd Round Challenge Cup Draw - Sheff Wed at home.

[andyswfc]

It is amazing that even in those days, people were crushed, and barriers gave way. One player is quoted as saying when the teams came out of the tunnel onto the pitch(at Sheffield) casualties were being treated in the tunnel.

Yes there was at least one death. Swift talked of this as well. Yet it took 50 odd years and a major disaster at Hillsborough before people started to seriously look at the venue and ground safety.

Give over mate..it was fences that caused Hillsborough..it was us that caused fences...football grounds were jammed to the rafters in those days...small areas and a ridiculous fencing set up on the Leppings lane was the cause of '89

 

[Bluep*ss]

It is amazing that even in those days, people were crushed, and barriers gave way. One player is quoted as saying when the teams came out of the tunnel onto the pitch(at Sheffield) casualties were being treated in the tunnel.

Yes there was at least one death. Swift talked of this as well. Yet it took 50 odd years and a major disaster at Hillsborough before people started to seriously look at the venue and ground safety.

Give over mate..it was fences that caused Hillsborough..it was us that caused fences...football grounds were jammed to the rafters in those days...small areas and a ridiculous fencing set up on the Leppings lane was the cause of '89

What's with this "Give over mate" ?..........Gary James , City historian, was quoting the facts. Barriers did give way all those years ago - and people died.
Ever heard of the Burnden Park disaster.>?

 

[Gary James]

As the last 25 years' debate, accusations, coverups and so on have shown there are many factors that were instrumental in the 1989 Hillsborough disaster, but my point was that in 1934 the stadium was not equipped to cope and that at least 1 person died. Football fans were treated appallingly then and they were still being treated badly in 89. Hooliganism caused fences to be erected (but even that's a more complex debate) but fences did not cause deaths in 1934, at Burnden Park, or at Ibrox. These were caused - or at least it was a contibutory factor - by fans being packed into areas of venues that couldn't cope (paddocks, stairways, general terraced stands). A situation that was still true in 1989. Each disaster was different and 1934 wasn't a disaster as such but no fan should ever have lost his/her life at a football ground - safety should've been a major concern but until the modern era it was more about packing people in.

We could add Bradford to the debate about safety.

 

[andyswfc]

As the last 25 years' debate, accusations, coverups and so on have shown there are many factors that were instrumental in the 1989 Hillsborough disaster, but my point was that in 1934 the stadium was not equipped to cope and that at least 1 person died. Football fans were treated appallingly then and they were still being treated badly in 89. Hooliganism caused fences to be erected (but even that's a more complex debate) but fences did not cause deaths in 1934, at Burnden Park, or at Ibrox. These were caused - or at least it was a contibutory factor - by fans being packed into areas of venues that couldn't cope (paddocks, stairways, general terraced stands). A situation that was still true in 1989. Each disaster was different and 1934 wasn't a disaster as such but no fan should ever have lost his/her life at a football ground - safety should've been a major concern but until the modern era it was more about packing people in.

We could add Bradford to the debate about safety.

The difference is Gary, that regrettable death in 1934 was caused by a lack of safety, Bradford fire, Ibrox..the same I agree with you, but Hillsborough has not been a dangerous ground since 1934, safety evolves because of these sad incidents,.
Hillsborough was changed from being a safe ground into an unsafe ground by ythose two ridiculous fences either side of the Lepp Tunnel, they ran down from top to bottom of the terrace creating a pen that was in no way necessary because the Leppings Lane end was the designated away end, had been for ages..
Ive been on the Leppings Lane end in crowds bigger than the '89 semi..no fences..no trouble....pre the fences, grounds were not designed to be unsafe...they were unsafe because maybe they were older and the safety measures were inadequate..I admit..but those fences at The Leppings lane end did nothing bar make the place a death trap..

 

[Gary James]

I share your views on the pen system of fencing used at Leppings Lane and at Old Trafford but the safety Green Code that was in force in 1989 actually suggested that clubs should convert terracing to the pen system (so the Kippax at Maine Rd was not supposed to be good and yet was much safer). The issue though is not on the fencing of those terraces it's about capacity and exit roots, both of which the old Green Code was clear on. It even set capacities for terracing pens - 53 people per 10 square metres or 27 per 10 if there are potential hazards (much more complex than that, but the Green Code went into the specifics).

I totally hated being uncomfortably penned in myself in that section when City played Wednesday at Christmas a year or so before the disaster, and was also far from happy with similar at old Trafford where they also locked us in and wouldn't let you out for a toilet visit or anything. But if capacities of each pen had been adhered to and crowds controlled effectively then those pen systems (though I'm personally against them) would be safe. My point is that throughout football history fans were packed in to stadia/terracing/pens/stairways that couldn't cope with the numbers in that section. It was pack them in and hope for the best and we as fans were treated appallingly.

Hillsborough in 1989 was regarded as one of our best and safest venues and was one I loved, but it does actually say a lot about the way fans were treated that one of our best stadia could have such a major disaster. Those of us who travelled away at the time know that many other venues were poor in comparison. I have felt real sorrow at times over Hillsborough but I also feel sorry for Wednesday that recent discussions on the disaster talk of the stadium as if it was totally unsafe - if it was then almost every other ground was.

 

[Wilf Wild 1937]

I share your views on the pen system of fencing used at Leppings Lane and at Old Trafford but the safety Green Code that was in force in 1989 actually suggested that clubs should convert terracing to the pen system (so the Kippax at Maine Rd was not supposed to be good and yet was much safer). The issue though is not on the fencing of those terraces it's about capacity and exit roots, both of which the old Green Code was clear on. It even set capacities for terracing pens - 53 people per 10 square metres or 27 per 10 if there are potential hazards (much more complex than that, but the Green Code went into the specifics).

I totally hated being uncomfortably penned in myself in that section when City played Wednesday at Christmas a year or so before the disaster, and was also far from happy with similar at old Trafford where they also locked us in and wouldn't let you out for a toilet visit or anything. But if capacities of each pen had been adhered to and crowds controlled effectively then those pen systems (though I'm personally against them) would be safe. My point is that throughout football history fans were packed in to stadia/terracing/pens/stairways that couldn't cope with the numbers in that section. It was pack them in and hope for the best and we as fans were treated appallingly.

Hillsborough in 1989 was regarded as one of our best and safest venues and was one I loved, but it does actually say a lot about the way fans were treated that one of our best stadia could have such a major disaster. Those of us who travelled away at the time know that many other venues were poor in comparison. I have felt real sorrow at times over Hillsborough but I also feel sorry for Wednesday that recent discussions on the disaster talk of the stadium as if it was totally unsafe - if it was then almost every other ground was.

Gary, am I right that 1934 & 1989 weren't the only occasions that people died at Hillsborough?
I think I read somewhere that there had been a history of incidents over several decades.

 

[andyswfc]

I don't know how old you are Gary, but City have always travelled in numbers to Hillsborough and I reckon if you asked any who had pre the fences they would not have felt uncomfortable.
As you enter Leppings Lane the obvious entrance is the tunnel into where that particular pen was...If you are approaching kick off and a gate is open, thats where most football fans would head..
The police had a habit of filling that section first for league games...simply because it stopped fans wandering in my opinion...as thosde fences running from back to front seperated a dedicated away end..I honestly never could see the point...

 

[andyswfc]

Yes there was at least one death. Swift talked of this as well. Yet it took 50 odd years and a major disaster at Hillsborough before people started to seriously look at the venue and ground safety.

Give over mate..it was fences that caused Hillsborough..it was us that caused fences...football grounds were jammed to the rafters in those days...small areas and a ridiculous fencing set up on the Leppings lane was the cause of '89

What's with this "Give over mate" ?..........Gary James , City historian, was quoting the facts. Barriers did give way all those years ago - and people died.
Ever heard of the Burnden Park disaster.>?

Gary also said it "Took 50 years before people looked at the venue and acted"..thats not true...Hillsborougg was a state of the art stadium in the 60's and 70's..pre fencing...

 

[Gary James]

Give over mate..it was fences that caused Hillsborough..it was us that caused fences...football grounds were jammed to the rafters in those days...small areas and a ridiculous fencing set up on the Leppings lane was the cause of '89

What's with this "Give over mate" ?..........Gary James , City historian, was quoting the facts. Barriers did give way all those years ago - and people died.
Ever heard of the Burnden Park disaster.>?

Gary also said it "Took 50 years before people looked at the venue and acted"..thats not true...Hillsborougg was a state of the art stadium in the 60's and 70's..pre fencing...

My point, my only point in this thread, was that football fans have been treated appallingly by the clubs and authorities over the years. Hillsborough was always one of my favourite grounds and perceived as one of the best in the country, but fans were packed in that stadium and others at times. I have no idea how true the stories of 1957 are but this article (and there are others) that suggest the Leppings Lane had issues for decades - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/9548881/Hillsboroughs-Leppings-Lane-deathtrap-threatened-Manchester-United-fans-32-years-before-1989-tragedy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... agedy.html</a>. Personally I find this reporting is a little off. The pen system wasn't, as far as I'm aware in place in 57. This raises a few questions - if it was in operation, why wasn't more done in the years between 57 and 89, and if it wasn't in place then fencing was only one issue at that end.

Whether Hillsborough was unfit to stage major events or not is a side issue for me. The real issue was that football clubs and authorities saw it as one of the best grounds (which it was), so what does that say about the way we were treated elsewhere? If one of our best stadia could have those issues then it's a miracle there weren't other major disasters of a similar nature.

 

[andyswfc]

Think we are more or less agreeing Gary...congrats on last night BTW..thought City looked extremely comfortable..
Yea ive read the telegraph report and several others like it post Hillsborough...Most football fans have had experiences like that all over the country if they travelled away in those days..not only at football stadia, but railway stations etc...one of my worst was Forest away..stuck in an ante room at the Station with no room to breathe and a police horse trying to get in...but it sounds more sinister if it happened on the Lepp pre '89...thats not saying it didn't happen..it quite obviously did to teams like City and United who travelled in numbers to Hillsborough.
It also happened at grounds up and down the country, Luckily..or unluckily' the way The owls dip up and down the leagues in my time..ive visited most..as I suppose you lads have...pre fences at football grounds there was somewhere to go..even if it was on the pitch..fences took those options away with devastating results.
Anyroad upwards..hope you see this as a discussion rather than an argument...I take all your points on board and agree with the majority...
Good luck in the next round of the F.A c.....errr..I mean champs league..