#47 | Phil Foden - 2021/22 Performances

[Gundog’s Gundog]

Wow …. beckham and wio are “remembered as all time great footballers”

Have a word with yourself pal

 

[TravisBickle]

Wow …. beckham and wio are “remembered as all time great footballers”

Have a word with yourself pal

It’s what rags do all the time with their average players.
Ive seen threads on their forums in the last year or so stating that they would rather have Rashford or Greenwood ahead of Phil!
I mean where the fuck do you go with that kind of mentality ffs!

 

[Lavinda Past]

To be fair you said you remembered 'wonderfully entertaining football' when describing those players, and that's what I consider Foden to bring :)

FWIW, I think most of those players probably aren't that better than what we see today, sometimes maybe not even as good technically - it's just the 'worst' players have gotten significantly better these days. You're bad premier league defender is milessss better than the bad defenders of that era. They're all now at very least exceptional athletes, ten times more professional, better trained etc. Defenders now pass as well as the creative midfielders back then, and why wouldn't they? The game demands it. I don't think it's that individuality is trained out of them, it's just that it's fucking hard to do what those lot did back then, cos football is just a lot, lot better.

Modern football is played on a carpet, proper tackling isn’t allowed and players are looked after far better than they were.
It's progress. Not necessarily a bad thing for the business as long as it entertains the masses.
It doesn't mean football is better or that players are better than the past.

Three things I am 100% sure of though...

Prime Paul Gascoigne would dominate any midfield in the current PL.

Prime George Best would win the Ballon d'or by a landslide.

I'd still pay good money to go to watch Frank Worthington in his prime.

 

[Gundog’s Gundog]

It’s what rags do all the time with their average players.
Ive seen threads on their forums in the last year or so stating that they would rather have Rashford or Greenwood ahead of Phil!
I mean where the fuck do you go with that kind of mentality ffs!

Spot on. Let’s not forget that Danny Welbeck was once held in the same high regard Rashford is now. Or that Tom Cleverley played for England. Their fans and the rag infested media help to build their players up to a status which they just aren’t worthy of.

 

[twosips]

Modern football is played on a carpet, proper tackling isn’t allowed and players are looked after far better than they were.
It's progress. Not necessarily a bad thing for the business as long as it entertains the masses.
It doesn't mean football is better or that players are better than the past.

Three things I am 100% sure of though...

Prime Paul Gascoigne would dominate any midfield in the current PL.

Prime George Best would win the Ballon d'or by a landslide.

I'd still pay good money to go to watch Frank Worthington in his prime.

I would politely disagree. I may not be your age, but I've seen plenty of the first two at least. Best was often up against players that would be lucky to be league one in terms of quality right now. Drop him in the game now and he'd be shocked by the pace of it. Maybe he would get up to speed eventually, but there's no guarantee. Played on a crap pitch or not, most of those players were heavy smokers and drinkers. Sports science wasn't a thing, they didn't train or practice with anywhere near the same intensity. Of course they wouldn't be up to the same level as today's game where you have to do everything better, quicker and more precisely. Brentford would probably beat the Brazil 1970 team IMO. The game is *vastly* better now. I'm not saying it's more entertaining, but the overall average technical ability, the fitness, the organisation etc is world's apart from even 20 years ago.

EDIT - this Best video just proves my point. The standard of defending is fucking dreadful. Genuinely amateurish at times. All throwing themselves in, all look so unsharp and lacking physicality. There is zero discipline. You couldn't do that today. They're just too strong, too organised, too fast.

 

[Lavinda Past]

I would politely disagree. I may not be your age, but I've seen plenty of the first two at least. Best was often up against players that would be lucky to be league one in terms of quality right now. Drop him in the game now and he'd be shocked by the pace of it. Maybe he would get up to speed eventually, but there's no guarantee. Played on a crap pitch or not, most of those players were heavy smokers and drinkers. Sports science wasn't a thing, they didn't train or practice with anywhere near the same intensity. Of course they wouldn't be up to the same level as today's game where you have to do everything better, quicker and more precisely. Brentford would probably beat the Brazil 1970 team IMO. The game is *vastly* better now. I'm not saying it's more entertaining, but the overall average technical ability, the fitness, the organisation etc is world's apart from even 20 years ago.

EDIT - this Best video just proves my point. The standard of defending is fucking dreadful. Genuinely amateurish at times. All throwing themselves in, all look so unsharp and lacking physicality. There is zero discipline.

I honestly have no words.

 

[twosips]

I honestly have no words.

It's a story as old as time. Older person thinks things were better back in their day, younger person thinks things aren't... :) not sure why you're so surprised. Anyway, if you can show me a bunch of teams that were as physically impressive as teams are the days who pressed with the sheer intensity that pretty much every top team does these days, then fair enough. That's why the games changed. The physicality is at levels never seen before. Your touch has to be better, it has to be faster. I've watched plenty of old games. They're not even comparable. They're vastly slower. The game is frighteningly quick now.

 

[TravisBickle]

Spot on. Let’s not forget that Danny Welbeck was once held in the same high regard Rashford is now. Or that Tom Cleverley played for England. Their fans and the rag infested media help to build their players up to a status which they just aren’t worthy of.

We would be here all night trying to remember all their so called "worldies" over the years who ended up doing fuck all on the world stage.

 

[TravisBickle]

I would politely disagree. I may not be your age, but I've seen plenty of the first two at least. Best was often up against players that would be lucky to be league one in terms of quality right now. Drop him in the game now and he'd be shocked by the pace of it. Maybe he would get up to speed eventually, but there's no guarantee. Played on a crap pitch or not, most of those players were heavy smokers and drinkers. Sports science wasn't a thing, they didn't train or practice with anywhere near the same intensity. Of course they wouldn't be up to the same level as today's game where you have to do everything better, quicker and more precisely. Brentford would probably beat the Brazil 1970 team IMO. The game is *vastly* better now. I'm not saying it's more entertaining, but the overall average technical ability, the fitness, the organisation etc is world's apart from even 20 years ago.

EDIT - this Best video just proves my point. The standard of defending is fucking dreadful. Genuinely amateurish at times. All throwing themselves in, all look so unsharp and lacking physicality. There is zero discipline. You couldn't do that today. They're just too strong, too organised, too fast.

Maybe that’s the vid where Sun Juhai learnt to defend years ago lol

 

[Agueroooo9320]

I would politely disagree. I may not be your age, but I've seen plenty of the first two at least. Best was often up against players that would be lucky to be league one in terms of quality right now. Drop him in the game now and he'd be shocked by the pace of it. Maybe he would get up to speed eventually, but there's no guarantee. Played on a crap pitch or not, most of those players were heavy smokers and drinkers. Sports science wasn't a thing, they didn't train or practice with anywhere near the same intensity. Of course they wouldn't be up to the same level as today's game where you have to do everything better, quicker and more precisely. Brentford would probably beat the Brazil 1970 team IMO. The game is *vastly* better now. I'm not saying it's more entertaining, but the overall average technical ability, the fitness, the organisation etc is world's apart from even 20 years ago.

EDIT - this Best video just proves my point. The standard of defending is fucking dreadful. Genuinely amateurish at times. All throwing themselves in, all look so unsharp and lacking physicality. There is zero discipline. You couldn't do that today. They're just too strong, too organised, too fast.

you are exactly correct. if you think carefully to what the other posters are saying as entertaining is that players look more skillful in the older game. but that is simply because the defenders in those times simply dive into the players all the time so the attacker can do fancy moves to get past him this looks entertaining. but now a days no defender dives into tackles and so it is not possible for attackers to make those creative moves and hence looks less fancy. but I bet if you take phil foden and put him in a english team of the old i bet he looks more creative and entertaining than maradona.

 

[bluesteel]

It's a story as old as time. Older person thinks things were better back in their day, younger person thinks things aren't... :) not sure why you're so surprised. Anyway, if you can show me a bunch of teams that were as physically impressive as teams are the days who pressed with the sheer intensity that pretty much every top team does these days, then fair enough. That's why the games changed. The physicality is at levels never seen before. Your touch has to be better, it has to be faster. I've watched plenty of old games. They're not even comparable. They're vastly slower. The game is frighteningly quick now.

The thing is you’re not comparing like for like. If Pele was born 20 years ago he would have been brought up with dieticians, superior tacticians, superior technical and fitness coaches. I get what you’re saying, they’d be crap if they played now but not if they were born now. I compare them the second way.

 

[twosips]

you are exactly correct. if you think carefully to what the other posters are saying as entertaining is that players look more skillful in the older game. but that is simply because the defenders in those times simply dive into the players all the time so the attacker can do fancy moves to get past him this looks entertaining. but now a days no defender dives into tackles and so it is not possible for attackers to make those creative moves and hence looks less fancy. but I bet if you take phil foden and put him in a english team of the old i bet he looks more creative and entertaining than maradona.

Agreed. Bernardo would likely look like Best too if you dropped him against those defenders. Watch those Best clips. They're all on their arse from jumping in and slowly reacting to everything. Fernandinho would just follow him with ease compared to the older players. Even someone like Wan-Bissaka, who is a limited footballer going forward, is an exceptional one on one defender simply, because he's so athletic. Sterling, even in his best form, struggled to get past him because of how alert and alive he was. That's a product of the modern game.

 

[twosips]

The thing is you’re not comparing like for like. If Pele was born 20 years ago he would have been brought up with dieticians, superior tacticians, superior technical and fitness coaches. I get what you’re saying, they’d be crap if they played now but not if they were born now. I compare them the second way.

I know I'm not. I'm not saying it to be derogatory of their overall quality, i'm just making the point that mavericks likely do exist, but they don't get a chance to look like that because the overall quality has improved so much. People bemoan the Best types disappearing, but players haven't lost the desire to do that and be that skilful - they just can't do that anymore cos the game simply doesn't allow it. It's too good. Too physical. Too organised. Look at Bernardo's run against Liverpool the other day. It was immense, and literally none of the defenders jumped in. They're all exceptional athletes too. Watch Best's opposition. They're gasping for breath, on their arse and running in circles. It's amateur-ish...now that isn't Best's fault of course! Just the game at the time. Bernardo and Foden are the exact kind of player we would laud as mavericks if they were playing 30 years ago. Difference is they can't drop everyone on their arses, cos defenders are on another level now.

 

[Gundog’s Gundog]

It's a story as old as time. Older person thinks things were better back in their day, younger person thinks things aren't... :) not sure why you're so surprised. Anyway, if you can show me a bunch of teams that were as physically impressive as teams are the days who pressed with the sheer intensity that pretty much every top team does these days, then fair enough. That's why the games changed. The physicality is at levels never seen before. Your touch has to be better, it has to be faster. I've watched plenty of old games. They're not even comparable. They're vastly slower. The game is frighteningly quick now.

You’re confusing physical prowess with artistry, two totally different things

 

[The Stockport Iniesta]

Beckham and Ferdinand have lived long in the memory- people still talk about them all the time today, they were good enough to play for one or more of the biggest clubs in the world and they turned up in the Champions League. None of those things are true of Gascoigne, who as I say is basically never talked about outside of conversations about England's best players.

At the end of the day you believe that being more technically gifted makes you a better player and I think there's a lot more to it than that, we aren't going to agree on this so let's leave it there.

Imagine thinking Beckham was a better footballer than Gascoigne. Gazza unfortunately had his personal issues with injury and addiction but was in a different league to those 2 rags you are bigging up. Before his injury Gascoigne was one of the best players in the World. As for Beckham and Ferdinand still talked about today, by who? Rag loving pundits thats who.

 

[Lavinda Past]

It's a story as old as time. Older person thinks things were better back in their day, younger person thinks things aren't... :) not sure why you're so surprised. Anyway, if you can show me a bunch of teams that were as physically impressive as teams are the days who pressed with the sheer intensity that pretty much every top team does these days, then fair enough. That's why the games changed. The physicality is at levels never seen before. Your touch has to be better, it has to be faster. I've watched plenty of old games. They're not even comparable. They're vastly slower. The game is frighteningly quick now.

No.... words...

 

[Tugay One Cup]

You’re confusing physical prowess with artistry, two totally different things

I don't think he's confusing anything with anything. He's just saying that, as a whole, defences were significantly more shite back then because they were.

This whole thing pretty much stems from one person's nostalgia from their youth. The level of the average player in the top divisions in Europe is so much higher than it was four or five decades ago. There is no rational way you can argue against that.

Today's Phil Foden would run rings around those defences all day long. Yesterday's George Best would probably be a special player still but he'd have to adapt his game and living habits to keep up.

The artistry would still be there because that's just "natural" talent but defenders don't sprint ten yards out of position and throw themselves into a stupid sliding challenges anywhere near as much as they used to, mostly because coaches had to figure out why players like Best were dancing around them with so much ease.

I get the guy's point about there being less room for individual expression these days but the game has advanced so much in pretty much every single department, whether people find it less entertaining or not.

 

[twosips]

You’re confusing physical prowess with artistry, two totally different things

I'm not at all. @Tugay One Cup explained it well.

There isn't a lack of 'mavericks' around IMO. That's what you see from older fans all the time, bemoaning the lack of individuality. I'm convinced those players exist with that same style and flair, but it's just so much fucking harder to be that cos defenders are off the scale better comparatively. Bernardo would like like Best in that era too, I'm convinced. No one would call Bernardo a maverick now though. What's the difference? It's just harder now, by some way, to put defenders on their arses repeatedly.

 

[twosips]

No.... words...

Which bit do you disagree with then?

 

[Gundog’s Gundog]

I'm not at all. @Tugay One Cup explained it well.

There isn't a lack of 'mavericks' around IMO. That's what you see from older fans all the time, bemoaning the lack of individuality. I'm convinced those players exist with that same style and flair, but it's just so much fucking harder to be that cos defenders are off the scale better comparatively. Bernardo would like like Best in that era too, I'm convinced. No one would call Bernardo a maverick now though. What's the difference? It's just harder now, by some way, to put defenders on their arses repeatedly.

You and Tugay make some good points that I agree with but I think there are a few important factors here that haven’t been mentioned. Firstly the English top flight is no longer just comprised of the best players in Britain they are cherry picked from around the world so the standard is naturally higher than it was when foreign players were few and far between so in that sense we’re not really comparing like with like

Secondly whilst physically players have improved immensely since the 70s / 80s the playing area is still the same size which naturally favours those trying to stifle creative play. Having better conditioned athletes covering the same amount of space inevitably leads to fewer instances of bad play / desperate tackles etc etc caused by fatigue but it doesn’t necessarily mean that as pure footballers the standard is so much higher than it used to be as Tugay suggests.

Thirdly and perhaps most pertinently for this discussion I think mavericks are almost coached out of the game these days - the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is so shiny and the coaching framework so organised from such a young age that kids who may have grown up to be Gazza etc etc knuckle down and learn the tactical side of the game and work intensely on their conditioning possibly at the expense of developing their artistry.