6 Nations 2014

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Its call a work in progress Joe. Under the new management we have progressed from last season. Its early days with Joe as the manager and from the signs of things they are progressing along very well. Ireland have never beaten New Zealand and would of done so this year only for a last minute try to take that win away from them. We have since gone on from there and won the 6 nations. IF thats not progressing under a new coach nothing is and also having 2 hard away games in France and England its always going to be hard to win a 6 nations with those 2 away games. As it will be the case for England next year. I think next year its all about peaking at the right time. 6 nations is early then World Cup we will be all trying to peak at the right time fo the year.

yhp, and I don't think the English will be too worried by away defeats with a home World Cup, I think the big focus will be on a settled squad with trying to get everyone fit, whereas I see the 6 Nations as bigger for the Irish in terms of getting a strong team together and replacing the likes of BOD and getting some key wins to build confidence going into the tournament. At the end of the day I think one of the NH teams can make the final just because of home advantage and because in a one-off game I think the SH teams are beatable on this continent.

-- Mar 17th, '14, 22:00 --

If they win both of them, it's all part of the master plan. If they don't, it's all part of the master plan, too. Meanwhile, they happy clap as a handful of wankers destroy the game in the mosti nfluential country in the Northern Hemisphere.
They're worse than rags for delusional thinking. And that's saying a lot.

why don't you elaborate on what the French & Irish are doing so right that the English are doing wrong.

Go back just a less than a page on this very thread, to what I've posted earlier, if you want to know what I think the English are doing wrong.
If I was an English rugby supporter, I'd be ashamed of my life at the way the way your clubs have tried to bully the rest of Northern Hemisphere rugby. As for the French? I'd be hard pressed to defend that lot. Despicable bullies, both of ye!

Will that do?

I don't really agree with you, and I think the poaching by French clubs needs to be stopped and that we need to protect clubs (and yes, even provinces) so that the Northern Hemisphere nations can develop their own players in the most efficient way possible.

I think the French suffer because of the way their clubs operate and I believe the HC suffers when the English clubs can't compete(selfish probably) and I think the English are fair to have gripes about the ease that the Irish, Welsh and Scots qualify for the competition.

That being said I think an 8 team Premiership would be better competitively, maybe 10 at a push but for me the calendar is pretty messy to the detriment of the clubs. I also think the Heineken Cup should be 16 teams, not 24.

 

[mad4city]

Joe, it's not the Celtic clubs/ provinces which are doing things wrongly, though. The Premiership is a dreadful entity and, it's worth pointing out, regularly participant's careers are prematurely ended by the ethos of that competition. To be fair, the French league can produce some good games. In fact, it's probably the best league around for entertainment. At the top end, the Celtic League is very good, at the bottom, it's shite. The English game is a constant bore, though and the darts style commentary doesn't plaster over the cracks for me.
Fair enough, it's laughable that you can actually finish seventh in the Celtic League and still qualify for the Heineken Cup by virtue of being the top Scottish team. And yes, the Heineken Cup is an unwieldy thing and the Italian sides' presence actually detracts from the competition. I'm not saying things are perfect in the Celtic League or the Heineken Cup but the English model certainly isn't the route to follow.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Joe, it's not the Celtic clubs/ provinces which are doing things wrongly, though. The Premiership is a dreadful entity and, it's worth pointing out, regularly participant's careers are prematurely ended by the ethos of that competition. To be fair, the French league can produce some good games. In fact, it's probably the best league around for entertainment. At the top end, the Celtic League is very good, at the bottom, it's shite. The English game is a constant bore, though and the darts style commentary doesn't plaster over the cracks for me.
Fair enough, it's laughable that you can actually finish seventh in the Celtic League and still qualify for the Heineken Cup by virtue of being the top Scottish team. And yes, the Heineken Cup is an unwieldy thing and the Italian sides' presence actually detracts from the competition. I'm not saying things are perfect in the Celtic League or the Heineken Cup but the English model certainly isn't the route to follow.

There's nothing wrong with a forwards based game, and England played a fair bit of nice rugby in the 6 Nations. Alright it was no Wales v Scotland but it was an inexperienced backline and it was still missing a few players. There are calls in our game to try and force all the Prem clubs to have all weather pitches like the Prem league has, which I think would help, but what would also help is if we could keep our promising talents and not lose out all the time because the salary cap means we have to let people go just to keep our stars from the French. Also I'm sorry but the Irish game might be fine but the Welsh and Scottish club scene is hardly in rude health.

I'm not suggesting the English model is the route to follow but I do think there are very valid complaints and the likes of the Irish could be proactive in helping sort it out, but as usual everyone's only interested in "I'm alright Jack". I think there should be a standardised salary cap across all 3 leagues, a HG quota plus club grown talent concessions to stop other clubs from poaching youngsters and best club players, it should not be allowed to go the way of football. Heineken Cup should be 16 teams, Premiership should be reduced to 10, every league should finish on the same weekend so that each finalist for the HC has an equal time to prepare for the final and I think we should trial a new points system, say something along the lines of 10 points for a try, 5 points for a drop goal and the 3 for a penalty and 2 for a conversion, to promote attacking rugby.

 

[without a dream]

Its call a work in progress Joe. Under the new management we have progressed from last season. Its early days with Joe as the manager and from the signs of things they are progressing along very well. Ireland have never beaten New Zealand and would of done so this year only for a last minute try to take that win away from them. We have since gone on from there and won the 6 nations. IF thats not progressing under a new coach nothing is and also having 2 hard away games in France and England its always going to be hard to win a 6 nations with those 2 away games. As it will be the case for England next year. I think next year its all about peaking at the right time. 6 nations is early then World Cup we will be all trying to peak at the right time fo the year.

yhp, and I don't think the English will be too worried by away defeats with a home World Cup, I think the big focus will be on a settled squad with trying to get everyone fit, whereas I see the 6 Nations as bigger for the Irish in terms of getting a strong team together and replacing the likes of BOD and getting some key wins to build confidence going into the tournament. At the end of the day I think one of the NH teams can make the final just because of home advantage and because in a one-off game I think the SH teams are beatable on this continent.

-- Mar 17th, '14, 22:00 --

If they win both of them, it's all part of the master plan. If they don't, it's all part of the master plan, too. Meanwhile, they happy clap as a handful of wankers destroy the game in the mosti nfluential country in the Northern Hemisphere.
They're worse than rags for delusional thinking. And that's saying a lot.

why don't you elaborate on what the French & Irish are doing so right that the English are doing wrong.

Go back just a less than a page on this very thread, to what I've posted earlier, if you want to know what I think the English are doing wrong.
If I was an English rugby supporter, I'd be ashamed of my life at the way the way your clubs have tried to bully the rest of Northern Hemisphere rugby. As for the French? I'd be hard pressed to defend that lot. Despicable bullies, both of ye!

Will that do?

God forbid that they want fair prize money and the best teams from each nation competing. The automatic qualification of the pro12 teams has been a huge advantage given how competitive the Top 14 and Premiership is.<br /><br />-- Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:31 am --<br /><br />

Joe regarding the centers for Ireland next year. Well we have a few contenders. We were blessed with BOD and Darcy over the years. BODs creative play might not be seen in a Irish jersey as he proved this year. I dont think there has been many centers in world rugby who has played so well internationally. I was hoping he would stay on and retire at the World Cup as he clearly still got it. I think him going now is his way of going out on top. I would look at Fitzgerald in the center or even Tommy Bowe could be tried there as a stop gap. Luke Marshall will be given a chance too.

It's taken England the best part of a decade to find some decent centres, I admire your confidence that a bunch of wingers can step in though.

yeah Tuilagi or Burrell? maybe Manu might end up on the wing, with Yarde on the other.

Tuilagi is the better player, I'd be tempted to give him a go on the wing though, he's played there a bit for Leicester and he'd still be able to come inside looking for work.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

yhp, and I don't think the English will be too worried by away defeats with a home World Cup, I think the big focus will be on a settled squad with trying to get everyone fit, whereas I see the 6 Nations as bigger for the Irish in terms of getting a strong team together and replacing the likes of BOD and getting some key wins to build confidence going into the tournament. At the end of the day I think one of the NH teams can make the final just because of home advantage and because in a one-off game I think the SH teams are beatable on this continent.

-- Mar 17th, '14, 22:00 --



why don't you elaborate on what the French & Irish are doing so right that the English are doing wrong.

Go back just a less than a page on this very thread, to what I've posted earlier, if you want to know what I think the English are doing wrong.
If I was an English rugby supporter, I'd be ashamed of my life at the way the way your clubs have tried to bully the rest of Northern Hemisphere rugby. As for the French? I'd be hard pressed to defend that lot. Despicable bullies, both of ye!

Will that do?

God forbid that they want fair prize money and the best teams from each nation competing. The automatic qualification of the pro12 teams has been a huge advantage given how competitive the Top 14 and Premiership is.

-- Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:31 am --

It's taken England the best part of a decade to find some decent centres, I admire your confidence that a bunch of wingers can step in though.

yeah Tuilagi or Burrell? maybe Manu might end up on the wing, with Yarde on the other.

Tuilagi is the better player, I'd be tempted to give him a go on the wing though, he's played there a bit for Leicester and he'd still be able to come inside looking for work.

Yeah I remember a few years back Leinster had pretty much 2 weeks off before the Heineken Cup Final and Tigers had to play a Playoff Semi and Final in the same period, once you know you've qualified in the Celtic League you can just concentrate on the Heineken, not the same for the English.

 

[mad4city]

The thing is, the Celtic nations have a far better set up regarding player well-being and safety. It's bordering on madness what the English clubs expect from their players. I wouldn't mind if the spectacle was reflective of the effort but it's not.
The Heineken Cup is probably the best competition in all of rugby. It'd be a crying shame if it were to be lost.
Granted, the qualifying system out of the Celtic league needs reviewing but I really think the English could have been a lot more sporting in how they approached the issue. Their entire tactic seems to be condescension and bullying motivated by greed rather than the good of the game.
What response did they expect? Were the Celts just supposed to tug their forelock and retire meekly? We've contributed to making European rugby what it is, too. And it hasn't just been a bit part brought about by some quirk in the qualification process. Nobody could seriously begrudge Munster their victories and that Leinster team has played some sublime stuff over the years. Also, there isn't a club secretary in the world that wouldn't relish a home game v Munster or Leinster. The Welsh travel in huge numbers too. These things shouldn't just be ignored because the English can't run their game properly. Christ knows how they manage to not make a profit, given the population and the love of the game but they do so, repeatedly. Perhaps it's because the product they offer isn't as entertaining as it could be? Surely not!? Heaven forfend!
Their answer to their dilemma brought about by their own arrogance and incompetence? Squeeze the little guys off the top table.

 

[without a dream]

The thing is, the Celtic nations have a far better set up regarding player well-being and safety. It's bordering on madness what the English clubs expect from their players. I wouldn't mind if the spectacle was reflective of the effort but it's not.
The Heineken Cup is probably the best competition in all of rugby. It'd be a crying shame if it were to be lost.
Granted, the qualifying system out of the Celtic league needs reviewing but I really think the English could have been a lot more sporting in how they approached the issue. Their entire tactic seems to be condescension and bullying motivated by greed rather than the good of the game.
What response did they expect? Were the Celts just supposed to tug their forelock and retire meekly? We've contributed to making European rugby what it is, too. And it hasn't just been a bit part brought about by some quirk in the qualification process. Nobody could seriously begrudge Munster their victories and that Leinster team has played some sublime stuff over the years. Also, there isn't a club secretary in the world that wouldn't relish a home game v Munster or Leinster. The Welsh travel in huge numbers too. These things shouldn't just be ignored because the English can't run their game properly. Christ knows how they manage to not make a profit, given the population and the love of the game but they do so, repeatedly. Perhaps it's because the product they offer isn't as entertaining as it could be? Surely not!? Heaven forfend!
Their answer to their dilemma brought about by their own arrogance and incompetence? Squeeze the little guys off the top table.

It's not bullying, the concerns about meritocratic qualification, even distribution of prize money and a democratic competition administrator were completely ignored so the English and French gave a completely legal notice that they wanted out. The English and French have no interest in participating in a tournament in which they have no say so want a new administrator, the Welsh clubs/provinces back the new tournament too. As it stands only the Irish, Scots and Italians are happy with the status quo.

 

[mad4city]

The thing is, the Celtic nations have a far better set up regarding player well-being and safety. It's bordering on madness what the English clubs expect from their players. I wouldn't mind if the spectacle was reflective of the effort but it's not.
The Heineken Cup is probably the best competition in all of rugby. It'd be a crying shame if it were to be lost.
Granted, the qualifying system out of the Celtic league needs reviewing but I really think the English could have been a lot more sporting in how they approached the issue. Their entire tactic seems to be condescension and bullying motivated by greed rather than the good of the game.
What response did they expect? Were the Celts just supposed to tug their forelock and retire meekly? We've contributed to making European rugby what it is, too. And it hasn't just been a bit part brought about by some quirk in the qualification process. Nobody could seriously begrudge Munster their victories and that Leinster team has played some sublime stuff over the years. Also, there isn't a club secretary in the world that wouldn't relish a home game v Munster or Leinster. The Welsh travel in huge numbers too. These things shouldn't just be ignored because the English can't run their game properly. Christ knows how they manage to not make a profit, given the population and the love of the game but they do so, repeatedly. Perhaps it's because the product they offer isn't as entertaining as it could be? Surely not!? Heaven forfend!
Their answer to their dilemma brought about by their own arrogance and incompetence? Squeeze the little guys off the top table.

It's not bullying, the concerns about meritocratic qualification, even distribution of prize money and a democratic competition administrator were completely ignored so the English and French gave a completely legal notice that they wanted out. The English and French have no interest in participating in a tournament in which they have no say so want a new administrator, the Welsh clubs/provinces back the new tournament too. As it stands only the Irish, Scots and Italians are happy with the status quo.

The French rugby union most certainly do not back the English clubs' stance. The French clubs do back it. I wasn't aware that the Welsh regions had disregarded the wishes of the WRU either but I'm happy to take your word for it.
It's not true to say that the French & English have no say in the running of the Heineken Cup. Their unions do. Their clubs' problem is that their union's voice carries only the same weight as that of the smaller nations. Therefore, they want a tournament that they can dominate and ignore the needs of smaller/developing countries. If that's not bullying, I don't know how else you could define it.

The thing is that you can't just ignore the weakest because there's no short term profit out of including them
Take Connaught, a few years ago there was talk of winding them up. This year, they shocked Toulouse. Italian rugby had plateaud a bit recently but it miles ahead of where it was even ten years ago.

I keep coming back to the same point however. The English clubs want to take control of the European game despite all the evidence pointing to the fact that they're running their own game into the ground.

Like all sane people, I will concede that the qualification standards from the Pro12 isn't fair on the English and French but how else are the Italians going to develop further? How else can the Scottish game be brought back to life? Provide a reasonable answer to those problems and people might start to think it's not all a scam dreamt up by a handful of club owners to squeeze more money out of the game.

 

[without a dream]

The thing is, the Celtic nations have a far better set up regarding player well-being and safety. It's bordering on madness what the English clubs expect from their players. I wouldn't mind if the spectacle was reflective of the effort but it's not.
The Heineken Cup is probably the best competition in all of rugby. It'd be a crying shame if it were to be lost.
Granted, the qualifying system out of the Celtic league needs reviewing but I really think the English could have been a lot more sporting in how they approached the issue. Their entire tactic seems to be condescension and bullying motivated by greed rather than the good of the game.
What response did they expect? Were the Celts just supposed to tug their forelock and retire meekly? We've contributed to making European rugby what it is, too. And it hasn't just been a bit part brought about by some quirk in the qualification process. Nobody could seriously begrudge Munster their victories and that Leinster team has played some sublime stuff over the years. Also, there isn't a club secretary in the world that wouldn't relish a home game v Munster or Leinster. The Welsh travel in huge numbers too. These things shouldn't just be ignored because the English can't run their game properly. Christ knows how they manage to not make a profit, given the population and the love of the game but they do so, repeatedly. Perhaps it's because the product they offer isn't as entertaining as it could be? Surely not!? Heaven forfend!
Their answer to their dilemma brought about by their own arrogance and incompetence? Squeeze the little guys off the top table.

It's not bullying, the concerns about meritocratic qualification, even distribution of prize money and a democratic competition administrator were completely ignored so the English and French gave a completely legal notice that they wanted out. The English and French have no interest in participating in a tournament in which they have no say so want a new administrator, the Welsh clubs/provinces back the new tournament too. As it stands only the Irish, Scots and Italians are happy with the status quo.

The French rugby union most certainly do not back the English clubs' stance. The French clubs do back it. I wasn't aware that the Welsh regions had disregarded the wishes of the WRU either but I'm happy to take your word for it.
It's not true to say that the French & English have no say in the running of the Heineken Cup. Their unions do. Their clubs' problem is that their union's voice carries only the same weight as that of the smaller nations. Therefore, they want a tournament that they can dominate and ignore the needs of smaller/developing countries. If that's not bullying, I don't know how else you could define it.

The thing is that you can't just ignore the weakest because there's no short term profit out of including them
Take Connaught, a few years ago there was talk of winding them up. This year, they shocked Toulouse. Italian rugby had plateaud a bit recently but it miles ahead of where it was even ten years ago.

I keep coming back to the same point however. The English clubs want to take control of the European game despite all the evidence pointing to the fact that they're running their own game into the ground.

Like all sane people, I will concede that the qualification standards from the Pro12 isn't fair on the English and French but how else are the Italians going to develop further? How else can the Scottish game be brought back to life? Provide a reasonable answer to those problems and people might start to think it's not all a scam dreamt up by a handful of club owners to squeeze more money out of the game.

And their voice has been ignored. I don't think any of the requests made have been unreasonable and they were totally ignored. A European competition is beneficial for everyone there's no value in excluding nations, the English and French just won't deal with the current administrator as there has been a complete breakdown in their relationship.

As for developing the game the rabo pro 12 would actually have to be at least partly competitive with the proposed changes and at least one team from each country will still participate.

The Scottish RFU have royally fucked up with their teams,I'm not sure what can save them (more money from a new European tournament perhaps ;) )but the current situation is hardly working for them.

 

[mad4city]

Bit of a bump, I know but as this thread had evolved into a discussion on European club rugby anyway, I thought I'd be as well off putting this in here as opening a new thread.

Anyway, The Sunday Independent, today, is reporting that agreement on a new European Cup format has almost been reached.
The ERC will be wound up in Dublin and new governing body will be established, HQ'd in Geneva.
The tournament will still be under the auspices of the IRB. Broadcasting rights will be shared by BT & Sky (this is the final hurdle in negotiations, apparently).
It will be a twenty team tournament. The top six in England & France will make up 12 of those. The seventh placed team in both those leagues will play of for a 13th spot.
From the Pro 12, the best placed team from Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy will take another four spots, with the next best three, regardless of nationality, completing the twenty.
Seems fair enough and crucially, the game remains under the control of the IRB, who may not be perfect but at least they care as much about the good game as they do the profit margins.
The only tweak I'd argue for is that, should the Pro 12 prove a point and continue to dominate the cup, then there should be three way play off for that "13th spot", currently set to be up for grabs between the French & English mid table teams. Indeed, I'd argue that right now but then, I might be biased. :-)