6 Nations 2014

[leighton]

Bit of a bump, I know but as this thread had evolved into a discussion on European club rugby anyway, I thought I'd be as well off putting this in here as opening a new thread.

Anyway, The Sunday Independent, today, is reporting that agreement on a new European Cup format has almost been reached.
The ERC will be wound up in Dublin and new governing body will be established, HQ'd in Geneva.
The tournament will still be under the auspices of the IRB. Broadcasting rights will be shared by BT & Sky (this is the final hurdle in negotiations, apparently).
It will be a twenty team tournament. The top six in England & France will make up 12 of those. The seventh placed team in both those leagues will play of for a 13th spot.
From the Pro 12, the best placed team from Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy will take another four spots, with the next best three, regardless of nationality, completing the twenty.
Seems fair enough and crucially, the game remains under the control of the IRB, who may not be perfect but at least they care as much about the good game as they do the profit margins.
The only tweak I'd argue for is that, should the Pro 12 prove a point and continue to dominate the cup, then there should be three way play off for that "13th spot", currently set to be up for grabs between the French & English mid table teams. Indeed, I'd argue that right now but then, I might be biased. :-)

The split is wrong and not fair if that's the way they are going. So 13 teams from France and England they are trying to kill off the game in Wales and Ireland and Scotland and Italy with this set up. It benefits way too much for English and French teams. Its crazy. If anything if its a 20 team tournament then make it fair on all nations with only 4 teams from each nation able to qualify for it. 3 guaranteed spots. Why Irish or Welsh Rugby should suffer at the hands of English and French rugby while in the long term it ruins there local game and will see there stars moving over to France and England to play rugby instead of doing so at Welsh or Irish teams. It will kill off the game in Italy and Scotland. Only having 1 team guaranteed to enter it. We might only see 2 from Munster , Leinster and Ulster all past winners of the competition and they regularly do well in the competition. There has to be give and take on both parts and in the long run the giving from the Italian , Scottish , Welsh and Irish rugby unions is way too much in contrast to the French and English.
I think a more fair split would be 10 even that's too much in my eyes from French and English rugby. The top 2 teams from Scotland , Ireland , Wales and Italy. Then the 4 next teams in the Pro 12 have a play off game for the remaining 2 spots. It gives a fairer balance and a way for Rugby to continue to grow all around Europe.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

I think it should be a 16 team tournament, the Top 4 from the English and French, the top 2 from the Irish and Welsh, the best team from Scotland & Italy plus the reigning champion (if they already qualify their place goes to the next best team in their association) and the winner of the Amlin Challenge Cup (if they already qualify then their place goes to the association that won the previous season's 6 Nations). There's too many French and English teams in this new format, though I don't agree that all 3 good Irish sides should automatically qualify as that's pretty much making their Pro12 campaign meaningless, which makes their end of season unfairly easy so they can rest players for cup finals that the French and English can't, so by and large I agree with leighton's concerns.

 

[mad4city]

It'd be a bit unwieldy, your plan, Leighton.
I get where you're coming from but, frankly, right now, Scotland and Italy are lucky to have any representation at all. At least, the proposed structure guarantees that if (when?) a smaller nation hits a fallow period, the game in that country will still have exposure to top tier rugby. That's extremely important. I don't know if you're old enough to remember when Romania were a very decent rugby side but instead, of encouraging growth there, the established nations starved them of competition. (Okay, there were major political factors in the game's demise there but the Five Nations sides (especially France) were quite happy to make short term gains at the expense of thw sport's development in Romania).
As I suggested above, the Pro12 deserves greater respect from its counterparts and seventh place there is every bit as difficult to achieve as seventh in the other two leagues.
My suggestion would be that say, if this year the European Cup holders come from the Pro 12, then the other French & English seventh placed sides would play a semi final for the right to challenge the seventh placed Pro 12 side for a place in the competition. (I know it wouldn't necessarily be the seventh placed team in the Pro 12 but you get the gist).
If the other two leagues are as superior as they claim, they'd have nothing to fear by this proposal. It'd also make twice as much money as the play off system that is now being mooted. This suggests to me that the English and French know they're bullshitting, in their dismissal of the strengths of Pro 12 rugby.

 

[law74]

I like the sounds of the three way play-off, the scrums should be interesting, but what sort of a pitch would it be played on?

(being ironic)

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

It'd be a bit unwieldy, your plan, Leighton.
I get where you're coming from but, frankly, right now, Scotland and Italy are lucky to have any representation at all. At least, the proposed structure guarantees that if (when?) a smaller nation hits a fallow period, the game in that country will still have exposure to top tier rugby. That's extremely important. I don't know if you're old enough to remember when Romania were a very decent rugby side but instead, of encouraging growth there, the established nations starved them of competition. (Okay, there were major political factors in the game's demise there but the Five Nations sides (especially France) were quite happy to make short term gains at the expense of thw sport's development in Romania).
As I suggested above, the Pro12 deserves greater respect from its counterparts and seventh place there is every bit as difficult to achieve as seventh in the other two leagues.
My suggestion would be that say, if this year the European Cup holders come from the Pro 12, then the other French & English seventh placed sides would play a semi final for the right to challenge the seventh placed Pro 12 side for a place in the competition. (I know it wouldn't necessarily be the seventh placed team in the Pro 12 but you get the gist).
If the other two leagues are as superior as they claim, they'd have nothing to fear by this proposal. It'd also make twice as much money as the play off system that is now being mooted. This suggests to me that the English and French know they're bullshitting, in their dismissal of the strengths of Pro 12 rugby.

I prefer just giving the spot to the association who wins the cup, and for the Amlin I think giving it to the nation who won the 6 Nations promotes a unity between developing international and club rugby, that along with HG rules would promote a more united system that would hopefully provide stronger NH sides.

I also would love to see a NH/SH Champions League style tournament but I don't know where it would fit.

 

[mad4city]

I prefer just giving the spot to the association who wins the cup.

Makes sense to me. There's quite probably a whole bunch of accountants just shaking their heads, sorrowfully, at the thought of that though.

 

[leighton]

Still think this is a shot term situation to a longterm problem if the proposals go ahead as they do and the game die off in those regions not getting more teams in it will kill it off. It seems yet again the Frenc h and ENglish Rugby Unions have too much of a say on how the game is run. Next they will be demanding more money from the TV revenue from the other nations. Let's be honest what's there already isn't that bad a few changes is needed. In the longterm I seen the Scottish and Italian game going to shit within 5 years. Italy have progressed well and its down to there club teams playing against the best teams in European Rugby this stops and both be the whipping boys for years to come. Sadly I see the same thing happening to Wales and Ireland too if this goes ahead.