737-8 max plane goes down (2018) - new not Max crash Indonesia

[RadcliffeRick]

Yep - the A380 had a catastrophic engine failure only a few years into service (QF32) which exposed a huge engine flaw. That incident could of ended very badly had it occurred slightly differently or had the pilots not acted so brilliantly. Rolls Royce equipped A380's were grounded for a long period following that.

Is the A380 unsafe as a result? Absolutely not and it'd be crazy to argue that. However, here we are arguing about whether the 737MAX is unsafe despite tens of thousands of flying hours proving otherwise. There were two fatal accidents but Boeing has satisfied regulators that they've fixed what caused those accidents. Hundreds more flights will take place today without issue so the evidence to say Boeing aircraft are unsafe just doesn't exist.


I think a lot of flying fear comes from a lack of knowledge and control. A train appears simple because it does one thing which is move in a straight line. Most people would probably say that that they could drive a train but not a plane because it appears far more complex and therefore most would assume that means it's dangerous.

This logic did make sense 50 years ago when flying was incredibly complex and aircraft were relatively dumb machines. This however isn't the case anymore, a plane flies itself 95% of the time and pilots now only effectively act as monitors. Aircraft are so intelligent nowadays that the weakest link in the chain is almost always the pilots themselves. Human error is still the single biggest contributor to virtually all accidents.

The single biggest reason why aviation is so safe nowadays is because of the huge efforts that have been made over the years to reduce that human error. That could be through automation, training or just teaching pilots to work together as a team.

Being in the aero gas turbine industry that engine issue was used as a case study for improvement of our practices of build and maintenance. The issue was caused by an incorrectly made oil pipe that fractured and allowed pressurised oil to spray into the hp compressor and then into the combustors. This acted as additional fuel as it burnt, this additional fuel caused a engine overspeed which then caused a disc to fracture.
It was not a huge engine flaw rather than one small component that got through quality control.
Agreed the flight crew were brilliant at managing the situation.

 

[East Level 2]

I’ve said for years that people should have to retake their test every 10 years, and every 5 years once they hit 60.

So many FOCs out there who passed their test on a horse and cart before traffic lights were invented and are now whizzing round not knowing what day it is through a cataract haze, paying about 50 quid a year for insurance.

FOCs this. FOCs that. FOCs the fucking other. Yada, yada, yada (whatever the fuck that means). So why is it young men are most at risk of causing accidents? - Though grannies in Micras must surely be second.
But I agree driving standards are low and everybody should retake their test every so often. I'd actually suggest every five years but with examiners who will only fail people due to serious errors.

 

[Scottyboi]

Verbalize
Verify
Monitor

Verbalize what you’re going to do.
Verify that it gets done.
Monitor the result.

One of the biggest problems with newer aircraft is that they’re so smart you can be lulled into a state of complacency or false security. “Children of the magenta line” is the derogatory term used for those pilots who grew up with automation and have barely “flown-flown” aircraft, let alone aircraft without any automation.

It used to be that flying without any automation was normal and that as you progressed up the industry ladder, the aircraft became more automated and you enjoyed the relief.

Today, new pilots learn to fly (fully) automated aircraft that have programming requirements and the knowledge of how to takeoff and land. For those pilots, automation has been the norm, and any step down in automation borders on an emergency.

Indeed, there is currently a big push in aviation for pilots to be more proficient hand-flyers whenever possible and to save the full-up automation for when it’s needed.

This ensures proficiency and currency, while allowing each pilot to emphasize the skills they’re supposed to be using on the Flight Deck: Pilot Flying and Pilot Monitoring.

Lastly, there is a new initiative called FLIGHT PATH FIRST, which is designed to make certain both pilots are focused PRIMARILY on the fact that the aircraft is going exactly WHERE you want it to go HOW you want it to get there.

That might sound basic, but modern aircraft have multiple different modes of flight and ensuring the aircraft is doing what you want, in the mode you want, is not as straightforward as one might think, especially when turning automation on and off.

For instance, as an automated aircraft reaches its cruising altitude, it switches from CLIMB to CRUISE mode, then DESCENT as you approach your destination. They’re completely different and programmed differently.

e.g. If I was climbing without automation (hand-flying) the aircraft would be in one mode (basically manual mode, with the pilot determining speed & altitude), but if I reached 25,000 feet while climbing to 30,000 feet, and hit “AUTOPILOT” to take me the rest of the way, it might be pre-programmed at a different speed than I was flying. That then automatically pushes the nose down (to get faster) or pulls it up (to climb at a slower speed, if I was already at CLIMB thrust).

Conversely, you could have been asked by ATC to climb at 2,000 feet per minute or greater to avoid other traffic. When you hit VERTICAL SPEED and dial in 2000fpm, your speed can dramatically drop off, because you were climbing at CLIMB thrust using the VNAV (automated prompts) as your guide.

In short, it’s a very dynamic environment and one ATC request or one pilot’s choice of flight mode can change those dynamics in ways you may not have wanted or expected, requiring constant adjustment and/or correction.

The goal of a good flight crew is to make all of those machinations that are going on behind the scenes feel seamless to you and to never happen without both (all 3 or 4?) pilots understanding EXACTLY what the Pilot Flying is asking the aircraft to do (Verbalize & Verify) and then making sure it is doing it as intended (Monitor).

All of that is merely to say it becomes MUCH easier to just turn the automation on at a low altitude (the 787 autopilot can be turned on at 200 feet above the ground) and, if you so choose, not turn it off until after conducting an automated landing!

BUT, that “easier” causes skills decay and muscle memory atrophy, not to mention a level of complacency that must be overcome when the automation might not be available due to a malfunction…which is why I usually hand fly up yo 18,000’ and down from about 10,000’ depending on the arrival. Some places, like São Paulo do so much controlling of aircraft, it’s often easier to hand fly the descent than constantly be changing flight modes, while Heathrow has a thing called a Constant Descent Angle arrival that’s much easier to accomplish with automation.

What was the question, again???
(Apologies to those that lost interest and didn’t get this far to read the apology!!)

With them modes available, is it possible in an emergency where both pilots are dead or incapacitated. That a passenger could be told over Comms how to automate a landing? I'd have no chance I'm colour blind and aggressive under stress haha.

 

[Scottyboi]

FOCs this. FOCs that. FOCs the fucking other. Yada, yada, yada (whatever the fuck that means). So why is it young men are most at risk of causing accidents? - Though grannies in Micras must surely be second.
But I agree driving standards are low and everybody should retake their test every so often. I'd actually suggest every five years but with examiners who will only fail people due to serious errors.

At a young age it will be lack of experience,over confidence and a need for speed. At the old age it will be lack of reflexes, poor eyesight and going slow in dangerous situations like the sliproad onto a motorway.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

With them modes available, is it possible in an emergency where both pilots are dead or incapacitated. That a passenger could be told over Comms how to automate a landing? I'd have no chance I'm colour blind and aggressive under stress haha.

Absolutely.

If the pilots have programmed the aircraft correctly on the ground during preflight, or even inflight once they knew more information (like a runway change at their destination) I could talk almost anyone through landing the aircraft safely using the automation.

In fact, even if it hadn’t been pre-programmed, with enough time to prepare you for landing, I could easily walk you through the programming needed.

 

[East Level 2]

At a young age it will be lack of experience,over confidence and a need for speed. At the old age it will be lack of reflexes, poor eyesight and going slow in dangerous situations like the sliproad onto a motorway.

Use the slip-road to match your speed to that of the traffic in the first lane. - It's tricky when the first lane is bunched together but should be straightforward otherwise. However drivers of all ages struggle with it. Will this improve as some motorway driving is allowed for learners?

 

[jimharri]

Use the slip-road to match your speed to that of the traffic in the first lane. - It's tricky when the first lane is bunched together but should be straightforward otherwise. However drivers of all ages struggle with it. Will this improve as some motorway driving is allowed for learners?

I was told that when you're on the motorway approaching a slip road that's entering the motorway, it's good manners (whatever about the actual rules of the road), to move into the middle lane, to assist those joining the motorway, providing it's safe to do so. However; looking at a lot of drivers these days, manners seem to be a thing of the past.

 

[East Level 2]

I was told that when you're on the motorway approaching a slip road that's entering the motorway, it's good manners (whatever about the actual rules of the road), to move into the middle lane, to assist those joining the motorway, providing it's safe to do so. However; looking at a lot of drivers these days, manners seem to be a thing of the past.

Similarly, stay in the second lane if you overtake someone just before you reach the oncoming slip road as you don't know if anyone is joining at too high or too low speed.

 

[Toney’s bookie]

Aircraft are so intelligent nowadays that the weakest link in the chain is almost always the pilots themselves. Human error is still the single biggest contributor to virtually all accidents.

MCAS says hi. 346 dead thanks to the 'intelligent' aircraft.

 

[Toney’s bookie]

I could talk almost anyone through landing the aircraft safely using the automation.

In fact, even if it hadn’t been pre-programmed, with enough time to prepare you for landing, I could easily walk you through the programming needed.

Lol don't be so ridiculous