A brief glimpse of God and Creation

[pauldominic]

Because the point that I'm getting at, is that people have killed in the name of God, but nobody has ever killed in the name of Atheism. This argument is one giant logical fallacy; namely the fallacy of guilt by association.

I can assure you too, that Hitler DID believe in God, or at least used Catholicism to shape his society (depending on who you want to believe). Again though, this is guilt by association. Hitler had black hair too, as did Stalin, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to arrest Michael McIntyre in case he commits genocide.

Hitler killed people in the name of conquest and social control. His religion was neither here nor there. However, this doesn't mean that wars have not been fought entirely based upon religion. There are always ulterior motives sure, but the "propaganda" of the time was always difference in religion. This is how they recruited and controlled their armies; the Crusades been a good example of a war fought over other reasons, but was sold as a religious war.

Marx called religion "The opiate of the masses". Communism was based on "Das Kapital".

Stalin was just as evil if not more so than Hitler with his Atheist Utopia.

Communism attempted to ban religion, it was illegal ( no court, you just disappeared) to go to church, and celebrate religious holidays. Well we've seen what has happened with communism, any state that tries to do the same will fail.

Indeed. They have no idea what they're up against.

 

[Josh Blue]

Communism attempted to ban religion, it was illegal ( no court, you just disappeared) to go to church, and celebrate religious holidays. Well we've seen what has happened with communism, any state that tries to do the same will fail.

Communism is working fine in Cuba just to say, they have not banned religon though if that was the point you were eluding to.

 

[BulgarianPride]

Communism attempted to ban religion, it was illegal ( no court, you just disappeared) to go to church, and celebrate religious holidays. Well we've seen what has happened with communism, any state that tries to do the same will fail.

Communism is working fine in Cuba just to say, they have not banned religon though if that was the point you were eluding to.

Edit: Just re-read your post. Basically yeah. Any state that tries to ban religion will fail.

 

[pauldominic]

Wow that's amazing. The fact that you don't even question the validity of a book that is 2000 years old is incredible. Your faith is so strong that you blindly accept direct quotes from the bible as if they're real. Man I wish I had your strength of faith. Unfortunately, I am a sane and skeptical person who doubts that a book written 2000 years ago which is riddled with historical inaccuracies and inconsistencies is a valid source.

This is why religious folk get me annoyed. You lot just blindly accept anything that a priest or religious person tells you. You have no ability to think for yourselves. There's a reason why there's such a vast difference in IQ's between religious people and atheists/agnostics.

But you will follow the word of a so called expert on the TV? Because this is what it comes down to

Can you tell me of the Historical Inaccuracies in the Bible? Or is this just another off the cuff off topic remark that passes into fact, because some one said it, bit like "Religion has caused more wars than anything else" ignoring the countless millions murdered by Atheist Communists in the 20th Century (in fact it the irony is it usually said by left wingers)

Foolish argument. Those people murdered because of their social systems; religious wars happened because of religions. Nobody has ever decided to go to war because they don't believe in a God and the others do. However, many have decided to go to war when they believe in a God and the others don't (or believe in a separate God).

You cannot draw an equivalence with these

Indeed Damocles - yours is a foolish argument.

Religious wars have never happened because of religions. Religion has always been a convenient label and nothing more.

 

[Skashion]

Communism attempted to ban religion, it was illegal ( no court, you just disappeared) to go to church, and celebrate religious holidays. Well we've seen what has happened with communism, any state that tries to do the same will fail.

Communism collapsed when it stopped using force to enforce its doctrine, not because of it. Sorry to intrude on this gooey-eyed religious romanticism but the bloodless revolutions occurred when Gorbachev declared that they would no longer interfere. Prior to that the Kremlin had simply rolled the tanks in and crushed opposition. As indeed the Chinese did at the time - with the same results as in Hungary and Prague.

 

[BulgarianPride]

Communism attempted to ban religion, it was illegal ( no court, you just disappeared) to go to church, and celebrate religious holidays. Well we've seen what has happened with communism, any state that tries to do the same will fail.

Communism collapsed when it stopped using force to enforce its doctrine, not because of it. Sorry to intrude on this gooey-eyed religious romanticism but the bloodless revolutions occurred when Gorbachev declared that it was no longer going to interfere. Prior to that the Kremlin had simply rolled the tanks in and crushed opposition. As indeed the Chinese did - with the same results as in Hungary and Prague.

Why were they enforcing it ? If no religion is what the people wanted ( sure there were other problems, but durring the communism food was more available then when it failed) then why enforce it? I literally mean you disappeared if you were caught going to church or celebrating a religious holiday. It is bullshit being enforced on people that made them resist, and hence the need to physically enforce.

Point is you can't force people to believe or, not to, and nobody should. This isn't where ElanJo was getting at but I've seen other posters suggesting that religion should be illegal .

I highly doubt religion will fade into the darkness anytime soon. Even when 'disclosure' occurs as Buzzer suggested

 

[Paul Lake's Left Knee]

Foolish argument. Those people murdered because of their social systems; religious wars happened because of religions. Nobody has ever decided to go to war because they don't believe in a God and the others do. However, many have decided to go to war when they believe in a God and the others don't (or believe in a separate God).

You cannot draw an equivalence with these

There is a difference between killing your own people and going to war with others, but Hilter didnt believe in God but he slaughtered millions of Jews because of their religion, not because of their status in society, regardless of their status... I am not ignoring the slaughter of millions of people by communists, i think they were very wrong to do that. I dont think that makes what has been done in the name of god right just because Stalin, Hitler, Saddam Hussain killed millions of people... that is despite the fact that many of those mass murderers killed certain sections (Jews, unorthdox religions in Russia or Curds) of their population because of their religion, so therefore religion came into the slaughtering of millions of innocent people... bad men doing bad things, but how does them being mad and killing people, make wars in the name of religion right???

Nearly every war is faught for a reason, usually to conquear and control others and religion is used to sell it to the masses, i agree with that... men using a book to control others to do their deeds, just like i said atheist Stalin did as i said in my previous post... this is where the whole religion thing falls down, the idea maybe (only maybe) good and perfect but the fact is humans arent, all religious books are written by men and not gods, they are all abused by others to get what they want... and i mean men and not women, thus explaining their masonagist tendancies.

As for Hitler, i thought he was brought up in a strict catholic house and went to catholic school (probably where he learnt to hate Jews) but i was under the impression his younger brother died and he rebelled against it all, coming to distrust and dislike the church. As for using religion to shape society, every nation has used it to form their laws, as this is where the moral code in society and thus our laws are drawn from, thou shall not steal, murder etc its hardly unique to him.

You didnt comment on the inaccuraces in the bible I noted, and there are so many more... what did you make of them?

All this without even getting to the fact that there is very little evidence to back up creationist theories, but the evidence for evolution through natural selection is huge to say the least.

 

[Skashion]

Why were they enforcing it ? If no religion is what the people wanted ( sure there were other problems, but durring the communism food was more available then when it failed) then why enforce it? I literally mean you disappeared if you were caught going to church or celebrating a religious holiday. It bullshit being enforced on people that made them resist, and hence the need to physically enforce.

Point is you can't force people what to believe and nobody should. This isn't where ElanJo was getting at but I've seen other posters suggesting that religion should be illegal .

Unfortunately I think you're probably wrong about that. I think you probably can do. If you restrict the sources of information available to someone, if you can alter that information after the fact to make it look as though you were always right, if you can take a generation of children from their parents and build them anew... Have you ever read Nineteen Eighty-Four? Fortunately, I think the internet and world wide web have strongly disrupted the capacity for that level of control.

My point is that they could have carried on enforcing it. The enforcement of that doctrine was completely wrong and immoral but they could have carried on doing it. Don't take the victory of liberty for granted. It is not guaranteed. There's no point being a misty-eyed and romantic about it. It can be taken from you, kept from you, and you can be crushed under the tracks of a tank or gassed to death should such a regime wish.

 

[savo]

Don't have the data in front of me but it is the case in developed/ing countries. The places where it's growing are typically the arse ends of the world (Africa, Middle East etc)

Bwahahahahahahaha

Christianity in particular is like a cancer. Just when you think its gone it pops up in another place.

You can fight against it all you like but you'll never kill it off.

Its even growing in places like China. I wouldn't call that an "arse end" as the most powerful nation on earth.

I shall finish by referencing Rabbi Gamaliel again: -

Acts 5:34-39

34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35 Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

2000 years later ...

Hmmm ....

Yep, popping up everywhere where poor education leads to a populace easily being indoctrinated.

You must be proud.

Haha, Pauldominic highlights Christianity growing in CHINA
When you live in a society that is governed by a politiic system that bans individual freedoms including freedom of belief then the simpliest form of rebellion is to believe. Hence the rise of Christianianity and other organised belief systems in China. It is not belief, it is really a manifestation of individual and collective protest.

 

[BulgarianPride]

Why were they enforcing it ? If no religion is what the people wanted ( sure there were other problems, but durring the communism food was more available then when it failed) then why enforce it? I literally mean you disappeared if you were caught going to church or celebrating a religious holiday. It bullshit being enforced on people that made them resist, and hence the need to physically enforce.

Point is you can't force people what to believe and nobody should. This isn't where ElanJo was getting at but I've seen other posters suggesting that religion should be illegal .

Unfortunately I think you're probably wrong about that. I think you probably can do. If you restrict the sources of information available to someone, if you can alter that information after the fact to make it look as though you were always right, if you can take a generation of children from their parents and build them anew... Have you ever read Nineteen Eighty-Four? Fortunately, I think the internet and world wide web have strongly disrupted the capacity for that level of control.

My point is that they could have carried on enforcing it. The enforcement of that doctrine was completely wrong and immoral but they could have carried on doing it. Don't take the victory of liberty for granted. It is not guaranteed. There's no point being a misty-eyed and romantic about it. It can be taken from you, kept from you, and you can be crushed under the tracks of a tank or gassed to death should such a regime wish.

I disagree. Enforcing beliefs and other systems on people is hard, especially when your number one resource is the people. Without them any state fails. The key to enforcement is not physical but mental. Something the Americans do exceptionally well.