A brief glimpse of God and Creation

[lloydie]

i believe its naive to think we're on earth just by co-incidence.

I believe it's stupid to be arrogant enough to subjugate the weak anthropogenic principle to anthropocentrism.

Well said.

It's also very naive to believe extraordinary claims without at least some evidence.

 

[Shands]

At any point in this thread is there a picture of Alan Mcgee with Bobby Gillespie/Noel Gallagher/Guy Chadwick (delete as appropriate)?

 

[Shadz69]

I agree, but the lowest common denominator is humanity.

As Father Ian Petit said "We are human beings - not human doings"

pauldominic.
I have tried to deal with your increasingly nonsensical and bizarre posts with something akin to a hybrid of scepticism and pity,but I am forced towards the inevitable conclusion that you really are suffering from some form of delusional illness.
Nothing you say makes any logical sense whatsoever - even your former mentor and intellectual superior Johnny Crossan has finally given up on trying to coerce a spark of common sense from your increasingly pious and inane ramblings and,to be honest,I don't blame him.
Even by your somewhat skewed rationale,posting a link to some warbling rag as evidence of god is grasping at ecumenical straws on an epic scale.
I won't have a go at you any more on this thread,or any other,any more,and I very much hope that you get the help that you need in the near future.
You can recover from the horror of a brainwashed catholic upbringing and come out the other side mate - I did it myself,and you have nothing to fear but fear itself.
Good luck mate.

Thats more than a little patronising.

Just because your paradigm doesn't match up with mine doesn't mean to say that yours is correct and mine isn't correct.

I have NOT been brainwashed. I am part of a Charismatic Evangelical Movement within the Catholic Church that has high level sponsorship within the hierarchy. Pope John Paul II himself was part of it.

I could reel off a list of names that would mean nothing to you but there are millions of us round the world.

I also see no conflict between Maths, Science and Religion. As I've pointed previously, the Society of Jesus has Mathematicians, Scientists etc.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjscient.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjscient.htm</a>

EDIT: Johnny Crossan is on Holiday.

Only the religious could think it is admirable to have a man who sheltered,protected and in some cases promoted child abusers connected with an organisation.
A pope who did more to hinder investigations into abuse will soon be a saint and the likes of you will crow about it.
Suffer little children let them come onto me? Summat like that.

 

[SWP's back]

i believe its naive to think we're on earth just by co-incidence.

I believe it's stupid to be arrogant enough to subjugate the weak anthropogenic principle to anthropocentrism.

This! But I doubt the poster you quote has any idea what the weak thropogenic principle is though I am sure he is looking it up now.

 

[pauldominic]

pauldominic.
I have tried to deal with your increasingly nonsensical and bizarre posts with something akin to a hybrid of scepticism and pity,but I am forced towards the inevitable conclusion that you really are suffering from some form of delusional illness.
Nothing you say makes any logical sense whatsoever - even your former mentor and intellectual superior Johnny Crossan has finally given up on trying to coerce a spark of common sense from your increasingly pious and inane ramblings and,to be honest,I don't blame him.
Even by your somewhat skewed rationale,posting a link to some warbling rag as evidence of god is grasping at ecumenical straws on an epic scale.
I won't have a go at you any more on this thread,or any other,any more,and I very much hope that you get the help that you need in the near future.
You can recover from the horror of a brainwashed catholic upbringing and come out the other side mate - I did it myself,and you have nothing to fear but fear itself.
Good luck mate.

Thats more than a little patronising.

Just because your paradigm doesn't match up with mine doesn't mean to say that yours is correct and mine isn't correct.

I have NOT been brainwashed. I am part of a Charismatic Evangelical Movement within the Catholic Church that has high level sponsorship within the hierarchy. Pope John Paul II himself was part of it.

I could reel off a list of names that would mean nothing to you but there are millions of us round the world.

I also see no conflict between Maths, Science and Religion. As I've pointed previously, the Society of Jesus has Mathematicians, Scientists etc.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjscient.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjscient.htm</a>

EDIT: Johnny Crossan is on Holiday.

Only the religious could think it is admirable to have a man who sheltered,protected and in some cases promoted child abusers connected with an organisation.
A pope who did more to hinder investigations into abuse will soon be a saint and the likes of you will crow about it.
Suffer little children let them come onto me? Summat like that.

It amazes me how people have developed such a misguided and warped opinion of Religion, Christianity and the Catholic church.

For your benefit I shall repeat myself again.

Child abuse is a consequence of evolution.
Child abusers are devious people who never had the vocation to the priesthood, but targetted it as an opportunity to pursue their deviant behaviour.
The church took a few years to get to grips with the scandal, develop a policy and implement it round the world but it has been now.

Religious people everywhere are no different to anyone else in finding child abuse abhorrent.<br /><br />-- Sun May 29, 2011 6:32 pm --<br /><br />

i believe its naive to think we're on earth just by co-incidence.

I believe it's stupid to be arrogant enough to subjugate the weak anthropogenic principle to anthropocentrism.

This! But I doubt the poster you quote has any idea what the weak thropogenic principle is though I am sure he is looking it up now.

Thats what I love about atheists. Anyone would think you had a monopoly of all the higher intellect.

 

[Shadz69]

Thats more than a little patronising.

Just because your paradigm doesn't match up with mine doesn't mean to say that yours is correct and mine isn't correct.

I have NOT been brainwashed. I am part of a Charismatic Evangelical Movement within the Catholic Church that has high level sponsorship within the hierarchy. Pope John Paul II himself was part of it.

I could reel off a list of names that would mean nothing to you but there are millions of us round the world.

I also see no conflict between Maths, Science and Religion. As I've pointed previously, the Society of Jesus has Mathematicians, Scientists etc.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjscient.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjscient.htm</a>

EDIT: Johnny Crossan is on Holiday.

Only the religious could think it is admirable to have a man who sheltered,protected and in some cases promoted child abusers connected with an organisation.
A pope who did more to hinder investigations into abuse will soon be a saint and the likes of you will crow about it.
Suffer little children let them come onto me? Summat like that.

It amazes me how people have developed such a misguided and warped opinion of Religion, Christianity and the Catholic church.

For your benefit I shall repeat myself again.

Child abuse is a consequence of evolution.
Child abusers are devious people who never had the vocation to the priesthood, but targetted it as an opportunity to pursue their deviant behaviour.
The church took a few years to get to grips with the scandal, develop a policy and implement it round the world but it has been now.

Religious people everywhere are no different to anyone else in finding child abuse abhorrent.

If it is so abhorrent why were there vatican obstacles to investigations into abuse let alone the non reporting of abuse and protection of these individuals?
Your own pope is guilty of this,is he not religious?
Again you dance around the issues and post some nonsense.<br /><br />-- Sun May 29, 2011 6:41 pm --<br /><br />Taken from the times online


When John Paul II died five years ago the crowd that packed St Peter’s Square for his funeral clamoured “Santo subito (Saint now)!” in a spontaneous tribute to the charisma of the Polish pontiff.

As the faithful marked the anniversary of John Paul’s death on Good Friday, however, he was being drawn into the scandal over child abuse in the Catholic church that has confronted his successor, Benedict XVI, with the worst crisis of his reign.

Allegations that the late pontiff blocked an inquiry into a paedophile cardinal, promoted senior church figures despite accusations that they had molested boys and covered up innumerable cases of abuse during his 26-year papacy have cast a cloud over his path to sainthood.

The most serious claims related to Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer, an Austrian friend of John Paul’s who abused an estimated 2,000 boys over decades but never faced any sanction from Rome.

Related Links
Worshippers revolt as Catholic leaders admit abuse
German attacks Bishop with broomstick
Easter of crisis brings prayers for 'new Reformation'
Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, Groer’s successor, criticised the handling of that scandal and other abuse cases last week after holding a special service in St Stephen’s cathedral, Vienna, entitled “Admitting our guilt”.

Schönborn condemned the “sinful structures” within the church and the patterns of “silencing” victims and “looking away”.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger — who became Pope Benedict — had tried to investigate the abuses as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, according to Schönborn. But his efforts had been blocked by “the Vatican”, an apparent reference to John
Asked by The Sunday Times whether John Paul’s role in the cover-up of abuse should be investigated, Schönborn said: “I have known Pope Benedict personally during 37 years of amiable acquaintance and I can say with certainty that ... he made entirely clear efforts not to cover things up but to tackle and investigate them. This was not always met with approval in the Vatican.”

The Groer affair became public in 1995 when former pupils of an elite Catholic school accused him of sexual abuse.

After an outcry, Groer was replaced and made the prior of a convent. He was never punished and issued only a vague apology in 1998 before retreating to a nunnery where he lived until his death in 2003. Some of his victims were offered “hush money” from the church.

Michael Tfirst, 54, one of Groer’s victims, claims to have reported the abuse to highranking church officials from the 1970s onwards. He says the church paid him £3,300 in 2004 under a contract that obliged him to keep quiet.

“There is no question that Ratzinger knew all the details of reports on abuse within the church, as there is no doubt that John Paul, his superior, took part in a massive and systematic cover-up,” Tfirst said.

John Paul also faced criticism last week from Poland for protecting Archbishop Juliusz Paetz, who was accused of abusing trainee priests. Letters detailing the charges were sent to John Paul’s office and to Ratzinger in 2000 but were ignoredMY PROFILE From The Sunday Times April 4, 2010

John Paul ‘ignored abuse of 2,000 boys’Bojan Pancevski in Vienna and John Follain in Rome When John Paul II died five years ago the crowd that packed St Peter’s Square for his funeral clamoured “Santo subito (Saint now)!” in a spontaneous tribute to the charisma of the Polish pontiff.

As the faithful marked the anniversary of John Paul’s death on Good Friday, however, he was being drawn into the scandal over child abuse in the Catholic church that has confronted his successor, Benedict XVI, with the worst crisis of his reign.

Allegations that the late pontiff blocked an inquiry into a paedophile cardinal, promoted senior church figures despite accusations that they had molested boys and covered up innumerable cases of abuse during his 26-year papacy have cast a cloud over his path to sainthood.

The most serious claims related to Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer, an Austrian friend of John Paul’s who abused an estimated 2,000 boys over decades but never faced any sanction from Rome.

Related Links
Worshippers revolt as Catholic leaders admit abuse
German attacks Bishop with broomstick
Easter of crisis brings prayers for 'new Reformation'
Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, Groer’s successor, criticised the handling of that scandal and other abuse cases last week after holding a special service in St Stephen’s cathedral, Vienna, entitled “Admitting our guilt”.

Schönborn condemned the “sinful structures” within the church and the patterns of “silencing” victims and “looking away”.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger — who became Pope Benedict — had tried to investigate the abuses as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, according to Schönborn. But his efforts had been blocked by “the Vatican”, an apparent reference to John Paul.

Asked by The Sunday Times whether John Paul’s role in the cover-up of abuse should be investigated, Schönborn said: “I have known Pope Benedict personally during 37 years of amiable acquaintance and I can say with certainty that ... he made entirely clear efforts not to cover things up but to tackle and investigate them. This was not always met with approval in the Vatican.”

The Groer affair became public in 1995 when former pupils of an elite Catholic school accused him of sexual abuse.

After an outcry, Groer was replaced and made the prior of a convent. He was never punished and issued only a vague apology in 1998 before retreating to a nunnery where he lived until his death in 2003. Some of his victims were offered “hush money” from the church.

Michael Tfirst, 54, one of Groer’s victims, claims to have reported the abuse to highranking church officials from the 1970s onwards. He says the church paid him £3,300 in 2004 under a contract that obliged him to keep quiet.

“There is no question that Ratzinger knew all the details of reports on abuse within the church, as there is no doubt that John Paul, his superior, took part in a massive and systematic cover-up,” Tfirst said.

John Paul also faced criticism last week from Poland for protecting Archbishop Juliusz Paetz, who was accused of abusing trainee priests. Letters detailing the charges were sent to John Paul’s office and to Ratzinger in 2000 but were ignored. Paetz resigned in 2002 when the allegations became public.

Stanislaw Obirek, a Polish theologian and a former Jesuit priest, said: “I believe John Paul is the key person responsible for the cover-up of abuse cases because most of it occurred during his papacy. How can someone who is to blame for this be beatified?”

In America critics pointed out that although Benedict has borne the brunt of criticism over ignoring the scandal of Father Lawrence Murphy, accused of molesting 200 deaf boys at a special school in Wisconsin, Ratzinger had acted on the authority of John Paul.

Another beneficiary of John Paul’s discreet approach was Marcial Maciel Degollado, a Mexican priest known as Father Maciel, who founded a conservative religious order. He was accused by former members of abuse in 1998. John Paul blessed Maciel in the Vatican in late 2004, at a time when Ratzinger was investigating him. A year after Ratzinger became pope, the Vatican ordered Maciel to lead “a reserved life of prayer and penance”, effectively removing him from power.

John Paul was also accused of ignoring controversy over John Magee, a former private secretary to three popes including the Polish pontiff, who named him Bishop of Cloyne in 1987. Late last month Magee was forced to resign after an independent report found that his diocese in Ireland had put children at risk.

In the Vatican the spiralling allegations have prompted a siege-like mentality. Father Federico Lombardi, Benedict’s spokesman, declined to comment on John Paul’s handling of abuse cases. “We’re busy with Easter celebrations, let’s focus on the homilies,” he said.

The Polish cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, John Paul’s private secretary for four decades, rejected as “unfair and misleading” any attempt to distinguish between the approaches of the two popes to abuse cases. “Benedict is strongly committed to clearing things up, like a father,” Dziwisz told La Repubblica, the Italian newspaper.

. Paetz resigned in 2002 when the allegations became public.


In Europe there are signs of the faithful turning their backs on the church in large numbers. In Austria alone more than 20,000 Catholics left the church in March.

In America there was a furious response by Jewish groups to a Good Friday sermon by Father Raniero Cantalamessa, Benedict’s personal preacher, in which he compared the wave of attacks on the church to anti-Semitism.

Rabbi Gary Greenebaum, of the American Jewish Committee, protested: “So far I haven’t seen Saint Peter burn. The Vatican is trying to turn the persecutors into victims.”

John Paul was expected to be beatified in October but the process may be delayed. A French nun who appeared to have been miraculously cured of Parkinson’s disease through his intercession has reportedly been found to be suffering from a different illness.

Giancarlo Zizola, a leading expert on the Vatican, said the church officials who had gathered documents and questioned witnesses about John Paul’s suitability for sainthood had examined “negative” aspects of his papacy, including his handling of abuse cases.

“There’s no chance of Benedict delaying the beatification because of the abuse scandal,” Zizola said. “On the contrary, I expect he’ll accelerate it.”

 

[pauldominic]

Only the religious could think it is admirable to have a man who sheltered,protected and in some cases promoted child abusers connected with an organisation.
A pope who did more to hinder investigations into abuse will soon be a saint and the likes of you will crow about it.
Suffer little children let them come onto me? Summat like that.

It amazes me how people have developed such a misguided and warped opinion of Religion, Christianity and the Catholic church.

For your benefit I shall repeat myself again.

Child abuse is a consequence of evolution.
Child abusers are devious people who never had the vocation to the priesthood, but targetted it as an opportunity to pursue their deviant behaviour.
The church took a few years to get to grips with the scandal, develop a policy and implement it round the world but it has been now.

Religious people everywhere are no different to anyone else in finding child abuse abhorrent.

If it is so abhorrent why were there vatican obstacles to investigations into abuse let alone the non reporting of abuse and protection of these individuals?
Your own pope is guilty of this,is he not religious?
Again you dance around the issues and post some nonsense.

*sigh*

Pope Benedict XVI was primarily responsible for development of the policy in the first place and on his recent visit to the Uk, met in private with some of the Victims.

Catholic Laity would tend to agree with you that it took the church too long to come to terms with the emerging scandal.

 

[Shadz69]

It amazes me how people have developed such a misguided and warped opinion of Religion, Christianity and the Catholic church.

For your benefit I shall repeat myself again.

Child abuse is a consequence of evolution.
Child abusers are devious people who never had the vocation to the priesthood, but targetted it as an opportunity to pursue their deviant behaviour.
The church took a few years to get to grips with the scandal, develop a policy and implement it round the world but it has been now.

Religious people everywhere are no different to anyone else in finding child abuse abhorrent.

If it is so abhorrent why were there vatican obstacles to investigations into abuse let alone the non reporting of abuse and protection of these individuals?
Your own pope is guilty of this,is he not religious?
Again you dance around the issues and post some nonsense.

*sigh*

Pope Benedict XVI was primarily responsible for development of the policy in the first place and on his recent visit to the Uk, met in private with some of the Victims.

Catholic Laity would tend to agree with you that it took the church too long to come to terms with the emerging scandal.

You agree john paul did everything he could to hinder and obstruct investigations?

 

[tonea2003]

It amazes me how people have developed such a misguided and warped opinion of Religion, Christianity and the Catholic church.

For your benefit I shall repeat myself again.

Child abuse is a consequence of evolution.
Child abusers are devious people who never had the vocation to the priesthood, but targetted it as an opportunity to pursue their deviant behaviour.
The church took a few years to get to grips with the scandal, develop a policy and implement it round the world but it has been now.

Religious people everywhere are no different to anyone else in finding child abuse abhorrent.

If it is so abhorrent why were there vatican obstacles to investigations into abuse let alone the non reporting of abuse and protection of these individuals?
Your own pope is guilty of this,is he not religious?
Again you dance around the issues and post some nonsense.

*sigh*

Pope Benedict XVI was primarily responsible for development of the policy in the first place and on his recent visit to the Uk, met in private with some of the Victims.

Catholic Laity would tend to agree with you that it took the church too long to come to terms with the emerging scandal.

not doing very well is he
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.startribune.com/opinion/editorials/122749159.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.startribune.com/opinion/edit ... 49159.html</a>

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/vatican-too-slow-act-abuse-allegations-against-dutch-bishop" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/vatica ... tch-bishop</a>

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hUrOgELEz5RyntdeXeLkl8fASFIg?docId=d1f3b394a0634d3ab631ee88728e9969" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... 88728e9969</a>

 

[pauldominic]

Only the religious could think it is admirable to have a man who sheltered,protected and in some cases promoted child abusers connected with an organisation.
A pope who did more to hinder investigations into abuse will soon be a saint and the likes of you will crow about it.
Suffer little children let them come onto me? Summat like that.

It amazes me how people have developed such a misguided and warped opinion of Religion, Christianity and the Catholic church.

For your benefit I shall repeat myself again.

Child abuse is a consequence of evolution.
Child abusers are devious people who never had the vocation to the priesthood, but targetted it as an opportunity to pursue their deviant behaviour.
The church took a few years to get to grips with the scandal, develop a policy and implement it round the world but it has been now.

Religious people everywhere are no different to anyone else in finding child abuse abhorrent.

If it is so abhorrent why were there vatican obstacles to investigations into abuse let alone the non reporting of abuse and protection of these individuals?
Your own pope is guilty of this,is he not religious?
Again you dance around the issues and post some nonsense.

-- Sun May 29, 2011 6:41 pm --

Taken from the times online


When John Paul II died five years ago the crowd that packed St Peter’s Square for his funeral clamoured “Santo subito (Saint now)!” in a spontaneous tribute to the charisma of the Polish pontiff.

As the faithful marked the anniversary of John Paul’s death on Good Friday, however, he was being drawn into the scandal over child abuse in the Catholic church that has confronted his successor, Benedict XVI, with the worst crisis of his reign.

Allegations that the late pontiff blocked an inquiry into a paedophile cardinal, promoted senior church figures despite accusations that they had molested boys and covered up innumerable cases of abuse during his 26-year papacy have cast a cloud over his path to sainthood.

The most serious claims related to Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer, an Austrian friend of John Paul’s who abused an estimated 2,000 boys over decades but never faced any sanction from Rome.

Related Links
Worshippers revolt as Catholic leaders admit abuse
German attacks Bishop with broomstick
Easter of crisis brings prayers for 'new Reformation'
Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, Groer’s successor, criticised the handling of that scandal and other abuse cases last week after holding a special service in St Stephen’s cathedral, Vienna, entitled “Admitting our guilt”.

Schönborn condemned the “sinful structures” within the church and the patterns of “silencing” victims and “looking away”.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger — who became Pope Benedict — had tried to investigate the abuses as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, according to Schönborn. But his efforts had been blocked by “the Vatican”, an apparent reference to John
Asked by The Sunday Times whether John Paul’s role in the cover-up of abuse should be investigated, Schönborn said: “I have known Pope Benedict personally during 37 years of amiable acquaintance and I can say with certainty that ... he made entirely clear efforts not to cover things up but to tackle and investigate them. This was not always met with approval in the Vatican.”

The Groer affair became public in 1995 when former pupils of an elite Catholic school accused him of sexual abuse.

After an outcry, Groer was replaced and made the prior of a convent. He was never punished and issued only a vague apology in 1998 before retreating to a nunnery where he lived until his death in 2003. Some of his victims were offered “hush money” from the church.

Michael Tfirst, 54, one of Groer’s victims, claims to have reported the abuse to highranking church officials from the 1970s onwards. He says the church paid him £3,300 in 2004 under a contract that obliged him to keep quiet.

“There is no question that Ratzinger knew all the details of reports on abuse within the church, as there is no doubt that John Paul, his superior, took part in a massive and systematic cover-up,” Tfirst said.

John Paul also faced criticism last week from Poland for protecting Archbishop Juliusz Paetz, who was accused of abusing trainee priests. Letters detailing the charges were sent to John Paul’s office and to Ratzinger in 2000 but were ignoredMY PROFILE From The Sunday Times April 4, 2010

John Paul ‘ignored abuse of 2,000 boys’Bojan Pancevski in Vienna and John Follain in Rome When John Paul II died five years ago the crowd that packed St Peter’s Square for his funeral clamoured “Santo subito (Saint now)!” in a spontaneous tribute to the charisma of the Polish pontiff.

As the faithful marked the anniversary of John Paul’s death on Good Friday, however, he was being drawn into the scandal over child abuse in the Catholic church that has confronted his successor, Benedict XVI, with the worst crisis of his reign.

Allegations that the late pontiff blocked an inquiry into a paedophile cardinal, promoted senior church figures despite accusations that they had molested boys and covered up innumerable cases of abuse during his 26-year papacy have cast a cloud over his path to sainthood.

The most serious claims related to Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer, an Austrian friend of John Paul’s who abused an estimated 2,000 boys over decades but never faced any sanction from Rome.

Related Links
Worshippers revolt as Catholic leaders admit abuse
German attacks Bishop with broomstick
Easter of crisis brings prayers for 'new Reformation'
Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, Groer’s successor, criticised the handling of that scandal and other abuse cases last week after holding a special service in St Stephen’s cathedral, Vienna, entitled “Admitting our guilt”.

Schönborn condemned the “sinful structures” within the church and the patterns of “silencing” victims and “looking away”.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger — who became Pope Benedict — had tried to investigate the abuses as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, according to Schönborn. But his efforts had been blocked by “the Vatican”, an apparent reference to John Paul.

Asked by The Sunday Times whether John Paul’s role in the cover-up of abuse should be investigated, Schönborn said: “I have known Pope Benedict personally during 37 years of amiable acquaintance and I can say with certainty that ... he made entirely clear efforts not to cover things up but to tackle and investigate them. This was not always met with approval in the Vatican.”

The Groer affair became public in 1995 when former pupils of an elite Catholic school accused him of sexual abuse.

After an outcry, Groer was replaced and made the prior of a convent. He was never punished and issued only a vague apology in 1998 before retreating to a nunnery where he lived until his death in 2003. Some of his victims were offered “hush money” from the church.

Michael Tfirst, 54, one of Groer’s victims, claims to have reported the abuse to highranking church officials from the 1970s onwards. He says the church paid him £3,300 in 2004 under a contract that obliged him to keep quiet.

“There is no question that Ratzinger knew all the details of reports on abuse within the church, as there is no doubt that John Paul, his superior, took part in a massive and systematic cover-up,” Tfirst said.

John Paul also faced criticism last week from Poland for protecting Archbishop Juliusz Paetz, who was accused of abusing trainee priests. Letters detailing the charges were sent to John Paul’s office and to Ratzinger in 2000 but were ignored. Paetz resigned in 2002 when the allegations became public.

Stanislaw Obirek, a Polish theologian and a former Jesuit priest, said: “I believe John Paul is the key person responsible for the cover-up of abuse cases because most of it occurred during his papacy. How can someone who is to blame for this be beatified?”

In America critics pointed out that although Benedict has borne the brunt of criticism over ignoring the scandal of Father Lawrence Murphy, accused of molesting 200 deaf boys at a special school in Wisconsin, Ratzinger had acted on the authority of John Paul.

Another beneficiary of John Paul’s discreet approach was Marcial Maciel Degollado, a Mexican priest known as Father Maciel, who founded a conservative religious order. He was accused by former members of abuse in 1998. John Paul blessed Maciel in the Vatican in late 2004, at a time when Ratzinger was investigating him. A year after Ratzinger became pope, the Vatican ordered Maciel to lead “a reserved life of prayer and penance”, effectively removing him from power.

John Paul was also accused of ignoring controversy over John Magee, a former private secretary to three popes including the Polish pontiff, who named him Bishop of Cloyne in 1987. Late last month Magee was forced to resign after an independent report found that his diocese in Ireland had put children at risk.

In the Vatican the spiralling allegations have prompted a siege-like mentality. Father Federico Lombardi, Benedict’s spokesman, declined to comment on John Paul’s handling of abuse cases. “We’re busy with Easter celebrations, let’s focus on the homilies,” he said.

The Polish cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, John Paul’s private secretary for four decades, rejected as “unfair and misleading” any attempt to distinguish between the approaches of the two popes to abuse cases. “Benedict is strongly committed to clearing things up, like a father,” Dziwisz told La Repubblica, the Italian newspaper.

. Paetz resigned in 2002 when the allegations became public.


In Europe there are signs of the faithful turning their backs on the church in large numbers. In Austria alone more than 20,000 Catholics left the church in March.

In America there was a furious response by Jewish groups to a Good Friday sermon by Father Raniero Cantalamessa, Benedict’s personal preacher, in which he compared the wave of attacks on the church to anti-Semitism.

Rabbi Gary Greenebaum, of the American Jewish Committee, protested: “So far I haven’t seen Saint Peter burn. The Vatican is trying to turn the persecutors into victims.”

John Paul was expected to be beatified in October but the process may be delayed. A French nun who appeared to have been miraculously cured of Parkinson’s disease through his intercession has reportedly been found to be suffering from a different illness.

Giancarlo Zizola, a leading expert on the Vatican, said the church officials who had gathered documents and questioned witnesses about John Paul’s suitability for sainthood had examined “negative” aspects of his papacy, including his handling of abuse cases.

“There’s no chance of Benedict delaying the beatification because of the abuse scandal,” Zizola said. “On the contrary, I expect he’ll accelerate it.”

The key thing here are the dates. The policy was published in 2001 but it took *years* before that to get to grips with the nature and scale of the scandal.

I can assure you chapter and verse that every aspect of Pope John Paul's life will be subject to the canonisation process.

As a global institution the CC is subject to all the frailties of any human organisation.