A War On Three Fronts

Ifwecouldjust....... said:
The Eu wont be worse off as they've already plugged the gap in trade created by the UK leaving. And in fact after our show of bad faith I would put it past them not to do a deal as we could just rip it up 9 months later.
Click to expand...

Plugged the gap have they?

Go on, I will bite, how?

You do realise that even in the event of no deal, trade between the UK and the EU does not stop?
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
The Eu wont be worse off as they've already plugged the gap in trade created by the UK leaving. And in fact after our show of bad faith I would put it past them not to do a deal as we could just rip it up 9 months later.
Click to expand...

they will be worse off, as regardless of additional growth, they lose competitive advantage in the UK market. so it’s a backwards move for both.
 
RabidCity said:
they will be worse off, as regardless of additional growth, they lose competitive advantage in the UK market. so it’s a backwards move for both.
Click to expand...
You mean as imports will cost more because of tariffs and the tanking pound, uk companies can be less competitive and can put up prices for us consumers.
 
Rascal said:
I honestly think they want an England and I said England specifically to be reimagined as it was in the days of their childhood. Long summer days, cricket on the village green, God Save the Queen played as the TV closes for the night, warships circumnavigating the globe flying the white ensign and Churchill giving patriotic speeches on the radio.
Click to expand...
How old do you think they are?

And that's the key question, because it's the same in America with the MAGA crew. They long for an imagined past that they didn't actually experience themselves. Or at least they use said imagined past to get elected and are deliberately vague about it for that exact reason.
 
I think we need to listen to that Silva bloke, hasn’t got the balls to say who he is, but I’m sure he’s a I’m sure he’s Committed to United National Transparency, that was hard work, I’ll just call him a ****
 
RabidCity said:
they will be worse off, as regardless of additional growth, they lose competitive advantage in the UK market. so it’s a backwards move for both.
Click to expand...
Well it's interesting, because it seems like the Brexit brigade don't seem to have a particularly consistent economic policy. One could argue that the countries that have been successful in recent decades (South Korea, China, etc) have combined free trade with a selective use of protectionist policies on certain products. You'd think that leaving the EU would put us in a perfect position to do that sort of thing. And a lot of Brexit and recent right-wing populism in general has been tied up in the reaction against globalization (traditionally more of a leftist position, perhaps), which has been blamed for a reduction in the standard of living and destruction of industries in Western countries. So it seems strange to me that Brexit is followed by a huge push to basically replicate all of the free trade deals we already had when we were in the EU.
 
Interesting thread.

What stood out for me is that in the main the debate is reasoned and polite except for 2 posters who seem angry and confrontational in their posting. This seems to fit in with Bob’s theory of Brexit/EU hate being a perpetual emotional fix.

For the people to which this applies and clearly there are large numbers that it does apply to, there will never be a satisfactory conclusion because what ails them lies within.

Just a theory but if Cummings/the Elliots/ERG/Farage or whoever is actually running the policy understand and are deliberately delivering never ending conflict as a means of retaining power it is an extremely clever if a very sad strategy.
 
dave_blue12 said:
Interesting thread.

What stood out for me is that in the main the debate is reasoned and polite except for 2 posters who seem angry and confrontational in their posting. This seems to fit in with Bob’s theory of Brexit/EU hate being a perpetual emotional fix.

For the people to which this applies and clearly there are large numbers that it does apply to, there will never be a satisfactory conclusion because what ails them lies within.

Just a theory but if Cummings/the Elliots/ERG/Farage or whoever is actually running the policy understand and are deliberately delivering never ending conflict as a means of retaining power it is an extremely clever if a very sad strategy.
Click to expand...

Interesting post.

Who are the 2 posters you refer to and as for there will never be a satisfactory conclusion for them, I would suggest that applies far more to yourself and those who have always demanded we remain.

Sir John Major and Blair have chirped in again this morning. What ails them?
 
BobKowalski said:
I think I made one error when talking about the war on three fronts, well two I guess. The main error was implying a war on many fronts is a bad idea, I mean it is, strategically, but judging by the responses in the Brexit thread I forgot that for some conflict with Europe, or with ourselves, is not a means to an end but an end in itself.

Just as in Orwell’s 1984 the war with Eastasia or Eurasia was a distraction, an end in itself it seems the only value in Brexit is perpetual conflict. For Brexit to ‘work’ it needs always to be in conflict, demands to make it work must always be out of reach, and if we ever agree something then it must be repudiated later because Brexit can never reach its end state or become real.

i have touched on this before, that Brexit can only exist in a state of permanent grievance, but I still forget it because for me it’s not a natural mindset and I need to relearn it every time I come across it.

Which brings me to the second error which was talking about and asking ‘what next’. But there is no ‘what next’. The conflict, the drama is always ‘what’s next’. I look for strategy, an end game when there is no ‘end game’. Perpetual conflict be it the EU, Europe, Ireland, Scotland, BBC, Remainers, is the end game. The UK will always make negotiations unworkable because making them work is not the point or purpose of the negotiations. Their purpose is to always be in negotiations, to be always yelling at the EU or demonstrating how they still want to ‘contain us’ or ‘dictate to us’.

You can see examples of this in the Brexit thread, endless harking back to May, her ‘surrender’ deal, how Remainers must wish they had backed May’s deal, the celebration of the UK reneging on a Treaty it signed just nine months ago, how it is of no consequence that a GE was fought on the issue of the WA and that we are going back on that too. Nothing matters, as others have pointed out, but feeding that grievance, a grievance that will never be satisfied.

So, in summary I think I answered my own OP. I just need to keep reminding myself of the answer and for my own sake keep asking ‘what next?’
Click to expand...

Orwell said it so well.

"The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous. ... The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia, but to keep the very structure of society intact" - Orwell 1984.
 
west didsblue said:
It’s not Dave arguing for an extreme interpretation of the 2016 vote. That vote has been delivered already and is no longer relevant.
Click to expand...

I don't see anyone arguing for it either?

I see negotiations, both sides with red lines, both sides saying they wont budge which could end with a no deal.

I'm fine with that. Want a deal and believe we will get a deal but prepared if we dont. You, dave and many others are not so again, where is this war being fought?

What ails you within?
 
blueinsa said:
I don't see anyone arguing for it either?

I see negotiations, both sides with red lines, both sides saying they wont budge which could end with a no deal.

I'm fine with that. Want a deal and believe we will get a deal but prepared if we dont. You, dave and many others are not so again, where is this war being fought?

What ails you within?
Click to expand...

I think I was fairly clear. We are fighting on three fronts. Externally we are fighting the EU and to do that we are doubling down on an internal fight with the devolved nations of Scotland and Wales, fuelling nationalism as a consequence.

Finally we are fighting a war with a new virus which has caused severe disruption to our economy and is still ongoing.

The UK does not have the capacity to fight on three fronts, it barely has the capacity to fight on one which is why we becoming unhinged with talk of blockades and the removing of Human rights. When ‘dear leader’ starts increasing the rhetoric and lies to eleven you know it’s going all going to hell.
 
BobKowalski said:
I think I was fairly clear. We are fighting on three fronts. Externally we are fighting the EU and to do that we are doubling down on an internal fight with the devolved nations of Scotland and Wales, fuelling nationalism as a consequence.

Finally we are fighting a war with a new virus which has caused severe disruption to our economy and is still ongoing.

The UK does not have the capacity to fight on three fronts, it barely has the capacity to fight on one which is why we becoming unhinged with talk of blockades and the removing of Human rights. When ‘dear leader’ starts increasing the rhetoric and lies to eleven you know it’s going all going to hell.
Click to expand...

I've heard you Bob.

The UK is a basket case incapable of doing anything on its own anymore.
 
blueinsa said:
I've heard you Bob.

The UK is a basket case incapable of doing anything on its own anymore.
Click to expand...

The problem being even as a leaver if that is Bobs point then I have to agree with him by and large. That sadly has been proved beyond any doubt during the past few months where both government and opposition have further proved that both are a disgrace and have no place in a decent society, the are both rotten to the chore and until a decent alternative manifests itself we are in deep trouble.

Not that I think the current political direction of the EU is a decent alternative even whilst we are in such a sorry state I should add.
 
blueinsa said:
I've heard you Bob.

The UK is a basket case incapable of doing anything on its own anymore.
Click to expand...

Again, you are being emotional. State capacity in many areas has been reduced over the last decade due to austerity, this is one of the reasons why we fared comparatively badly during the pandemic. Other countries had greater State capacity.

A crisis on three fronts will stretch our State capacity beyond its reach. Just as an army cannot fight on too many fronts, neither can a State. The biggest danger of the Internal Market Bill is the attempt by London to take back devolved powers which will provoke internal conflict we will find difficult to manage. Conflict with Ireland over NI at the same time will add to the crisis, increased trade barriers with the EU (either with a deal or without) and all against the unknown variable of the virus in mid-winter will add further strain.

None of what we are doing is sensible or rationale, hence the constant appeal to the emotional (blockades, foreign powers, enemies internal and external, etc). To view any of these issues objectively is no longer possible, stirring up the emotional appeal to bolster our case also stirs up the emotional revulsion on the other side.

Nationalism and division invariably ends in tears.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top