A War On Three Fronts

[blueinsa]

120000 dead due to austerity measures .... and I should seek help?

You would have us live under a political system that oversaw well over 100 MIllion dead in the 20th century.

Fucking clueless. Put your socialist worker play book down for an hour or so!

 

[BobKowalski]

I think I made one error when talking about the war on three fronts, well two I guess. The main error was implying a war on many fronts is a bad idea, I mean it is, strategically, but judging by the responses in the Brexit thread I forgot that for some conflict with Europe, or with ourselves, is not a means to an end but an end in itself.

Just as in Orwell’s 1984 the war with Eastasia or Eurasia was a distraction, an end in itself it seems the only value in Brexit is perpetual conflict. For Brexit to ‘work’ it needs always to be in conflict, demands to make it work must always be out of reach, and if we ever agree something then it must be repudiated later because Brexit can never reach its end state or become real.

i have touched on this before, that Brexit can only exist in a state of permanent grievance, but I still forget it because for me it’s not a natural mindset and I need to relearn it every time I come across it.

Which brings me to the second error which was talking about and asking ‘what next’. But there is no ‘what next’. The conflict, the drama is always ‘what’s next’. I look for strategy, an end game when there is no ‘end game’. Perpetual conflict be it the EU, Europe, Ireland, Scotland, BBC, Remainers, is the end game. The UK will always make negotiations unworkable because making them work is not the point or purpose of the negotiations. Their purpose is to always be in negotiations, to be always yelling at the EU or demonstrating how they still want to ‘contain us’ or ‘dictate to us’.

You can see examples of this in the Brexit thread, endless harking back to May, her ‘surrender’ deal, how Remainers must wish they had backed May’s deal, the celebration of the UK reneging on a Treaty it signed just nine months ago, how it is of no consequence that a GE was fought on the issue of the WA and that we are going back on that too. Nothing matters, as others have pointed out, but feeding that grievance, a grievance that will never be satisfied.

So, in summary I think I answered my own OP. I just need to keep reminding myself of the answer and for my own sake keep asking ‘what next?’

 

[blueinsa]

I think I made one error when talking about the war on three fronts, well two I guess. The main error was implying a war on many fronts is a bad idea, I mean it is, strategically, but judging by the responses in the Brexit thread I forgot that for some conflict with Europe, or with ourselves, is not a means to an end but an end in itself.

Just as in Orwell’s 1984 the war with Eastasia or Eurasia was a distraction, an end in itself it seems the only value in Brexit is perpetual conflict. For Brexit to ‘work’ it needs always to be in conflict, demands to make it work must always be out of reach, and if we ever agree something then it must be repudiated later because Brexit can never reach its end state or become real.

i have touched on this before, that Brexit can only exist in a state of permanent grievance, but I still forget it because for me it’s not a natural mindset and I need to relearn it every time I come across it.

Which brings me to the second error which was talking about and asking ‘what next’. But there is no ‘what next’. The conflict, the drama is always ‘what’s next’. I look for strategy, an end game when there is no ‘end game’. Perpetual conflict be it the EU, Europe, Ireland, Scotland, BBC, Remainers, is the end game. The UK will always make negotiations unworkable because making them work is not the point or purpose of the negotiations. Their purpose is to always be in negotiations, to be always yelling at the EU or demonstrating how they still want to ‘contain us’ or ‘dictate to us’.

You can see examples of this in the Brexit thread, endless harking back to May, her ‘surrender’ deal, how Remainers must wish they had backed May’s deal, the celebration of the UK reneging on a Treaty it signed just nine months ago, how it is of no consequence that a GE was fought on the issue of the WA and that we are going back on that too. Nothing matters, as others have pointed out, but feeding that grievance, a grievance that will never be satisfied.

So, in summary I think I answered my own OP. I just need to keep reminding myself of the answer and for my own sake keep asking ‘what next?’

There is no war here Bob other than the one remain campaigners have invented and fought since late 2016.

Next is the UK will no longer be a member of the EU. There is no going back for now no matter how many times you ask what next.

Even Starmer admits there is no going back.

 

[BobKowalski]

There is no war here Bob other than the one remain campaigners have invented and fought since late 2016.

Next is the UK will no longer be a member of the EU. There is no going back for now no matter how many times you ask what next.

Even Starmer admits there is no going back.

There is no next. This actually happened eight months ago, yet here we are still fighting for Brexit. Why are we still fighting eight months after it ended? Why are we still pretending we are in the EU? Does being in the EU now mean, not in the EU but having an agreement with them? Trading with them? Acknowledging the EU exists?

When does it end? The answer is of course it never ends. There will always be something we don’t like, or feel it impedes us in some way, or the EU is to blame for something that doesn’t work out. Brexit will always be just over the next hill, just need to fight and keep going that little bit further.

Your statement that the UK will no longer be a member of the EU is a denial of reality. Yet you don’t believe it to be true do you? You still ’feel’ we are in the EU do you not?

 

[Saddleworth2]

That‘s just emotion talking. Currently we have a war on three fronts. That is reality. Fuck EU, fuck Tories, fuck whoever, isn’t an answer, nor a solution.

We need a path out of this mess. The Tories proposed a partial path with the WA and ‘Get Brexit Done’. That path just got torched so where next? There is always a ‘where next’ or a ‘what next’. Tell EU to fuck off, and once you have told them, what next? And it’s not the EU you are telling to fuck off. You are telling 27 European countries to fuck off, you are telling Ireland to fuck off, indeed you are telling Scotland and Wales to fuck off, and once everyone has fucked off, what next?

There is always a ‘what next’ and Brexit has no answers to ‘what next’.

So, what next?

No deal Brexit. Continue to fight the Pandemic as we are just now until a vaccine saves us or everyone dies or gets immunity. Scottish independence in a couple of years. At some point there will be a GE, by which point the tories will be out on there ear or will have gerrymandered constitutional boundaries to ensure they win again. I think we face a decade of hard work and emotional turmoil. Every path is hard from where we are. There is no obvious more simple path Other than the entire Johnson cabal fucking off and some form of emergency Cross party government of adults taking on the challenge. The Cabinet would have to have a place for each nation. I have seen nothing from Keir Starmer that indicates he has the vision and toughness to be able to plot our way out of this. Sturgeon is the closest But would be an unacceptable pick.
Basically Bob, we are fucked for the foreseeable future. Christ I wouldn’t want to be in my 20s or 30s with a family depending on me in this environment.

 

[Saddleworth2]

There is no next. This actually happened eight months ago, yet here we are still fighting for Brexit. Why are we still fighting eight months after it ended? Why are we still pretending we are in the EU? Does being in the EU now mean, not in the EU but having an agreement with them? Trading with them? Acknowledging the EU exists?

When does it end? The answer is of course it never ends. There will always be something we don’t like, or feel it impedes us in some way, or the EU is to blame for something that doesn’t work out. Brexit will always be just over the next hill, just need to fight and keep going that little bit further.

Your statement that the UK will no longer be a member of the EU is a denial of reality. Yet you don’t believe it to be true do you? You still ’feel’ we are in the EU do you not?

It’s like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. You see it but every time you reach for it.......

 

[west didsblue]

There is no next. This actually happened eight months ago, yet here we are still fighting for Brexit. Why are we still fighting eight months after it ended? Why are we still pretending we are in the EU? Does being in the EU now mean, not in the EU but having an agreement with them? Trading with them? Acknowledging the EU exists?

When does it end? The answer is of course it never ends. There will always be something we don’t like, or feel it impedes us in some way, or the EU is to blame for something that doesn’t work out. Brexit will always be just over the next hill, just need to fight and keep going that little bit further.

Your statement that the UK will no longer be a member of the EU is a denial of reality. Yet you don’t believe it to be true do you? You still ’feel’ we are in the EU do you not?

What they don't get is that even if we stayed in transition for 10 years, the 2016 referendum result would have been delivered. It happened on 31 January 2020. Banging on about some future unachievable utopian state is nothing to do with delivering Brexit. Delivering Brexit is history, it's happened and it's a perfectly valid question to ask what happens next. The problem is that what happens next will be something that nobody on either side will be happy with, and rather than trying to come up with something that will cause the least damage, it's all about blaming former remainers for scuppering something that they have actually already achieved. The utopian Brexit vision was a myth in 2015 and it's a myth now. One day they might realise that what we've got now is Brexit. It's shit, and it's here to stay for the foreseeable future deal or no deal. All we've got to look forward to are armies of customs agents, loads of new bureaucracy, lorry parks, a weaker pound and gradual dwindling of the economy along with the probable break up of our 313 year old union. That's Brexit.

 

[blueinsa]

There is no next. This actually happened eight months ago, yet here we are still fighting for Brexit. Why are we still fighting eight months after it ended? Why are we still pretending we are in the EU? Does being in the EU now mean, not in the EU but having an agreement with them? Trading with them? Acknowledging the EU exists?

When does it end? The answer is of course it never ends. There will always be something we don’t like, or feel it impedes us in some way, or the EU is to blame for something that doesn’t work out. Brexit will always be just over the next hill, just need to fight and keep going that little bit further.

Your statement that the UK will no longer be a member of the EU is a denial of reality. Yet you don’t believe it to be true do you? You still ’feel’ we are in the EU do you not?

We are not fighting for Brexit.

Negotiations for a FTA are ongoing with a very real possibility of no deal staring at both sides.

You're right on still feeling we are a part of the EU in so much nothing has changed as yet and thread after thread on here full of Japanese soldiers, dug in, refusing to surrender ;-)

 

[BobKowalski]

We are not fighting for Brexit.

Negotiations for a FTA are ongoing with a very real possibility of no deal staring at both sides.

You're right on still feeling we are a part of the EU in so much nothing has changed as yet and thread after thread on here full of Japanese soldiers, dug in, refusing to surrender ;-)

Brexit as defined in the 2016 referendum is done. It was done eight months ago.

So what are we fighting for now? Because clearly leaving the EU wasn’t enough, so what is ‘enough’? Will anything be ‘enough’? What is the current war with the EU about?

 

[blueinsa]

Brexit as defined in the 2016 referendum is done. It was done eight months ago.

So what are we fighting for now? Because clearly leaving the EU wasn’t enough, so what is ‘enough’? Will anything be ‘enough’? What is the current war with the EU about?

I'm not fighting Bob.

Negotiating a future trade deal is not a war.

You keep saying it though and asking what are we fighting for if it helps.

The only war raging is in the heads of those who can't accept we have left the EU.

 

[west didsblue]

We seem to be turning this into another Brexit thread which I assume wasn't the intention. Looking at one of the other points made - the apparent willingness of the government to break international law to achieve its ends, I see this as an even bigger issue than the ongoing failure of achieving any Brexit benefits. If we want to "unleash Britain's potential" as a leading trading nation, how many countries are going to sign up to international agreements with us when we've demonstrated that we're prepared to ride roughshod over them if it suits us by invoking a domestic law that contradicts the terms an agreement that we've signed up to but have subsequently decided we don't like (or have signed up to something for expedience knowing that we're going to renege on it). This could be the final nail in the coffin of the UK as multi-nation democratic entity.

 

[Rascal]

You would have us live under a political system that oversaw well over 100 MIllion dead in the 20th century.

Fucking clueless. Put your socialist worker play book down for an hour or so!

We already do, rampant free market capitalism is the biggest killer of people in history, it just doesn't do it in one country it does it world wide.

 

[west didsblue]

The only war raging is in the heads of those who can't accept we have left the EU.

Looks like that's just you.

Next is the UK will no longer be a member of the EU.

 

[BobKowalski]

I'm not fighting Bob.

Negotiating a future trade deal is not a war.

You keep saying it though and asking what are we fighting for if it helps.

The only war raging is in the heads of those who can't accept we have left the EU.

We left the EU eight months ago. Reneging on a deal that facilitated that exit is a war, it is conflict. Reneging on a binding treaty means no future trade deal. You cannot sign a future deal with a country who has just reneged on a deal you have just signed with them. Anything the EU agreed and ratified with the UK would be meaningless. What would be the point?

 

[mackenzie]

We seem to be turning this into another Brexit thread which I assume wasn't the intention. Looking at one of the other points made - the apparent willingness of the government to break international law to achieve its ends, I see this as an even bigger issue than the ongoing failure of achieving any Brexit benefits. If we want to "unleash Britain's potential" as a leading trading nation, how many countries are going to sign up to international agreements with us when we've demonstrated that we're prepared to ride roughshod over them if it suits us by invoking a domestic law that contradicts the terms an agreement that we've signed up to but have subsequently decided we don't like (or have signed up to something for expedience knowing that we're going to renege on it). This could be the final nail in the coffin of the UK as multi-nation democratic entity.

We were once the sick man of europe, then we were the basket case of europe and now we are the chancing conmen of europe.
In fact, we will soon be seen as all three at the same time.
I despise what cummings and the like are doing to this country.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Actually the EU will be fucking us. They have the bigger dick.

And in a pandemic you are not just deciding for yourself. Your actions directly impact on others. You have to think of the welfare of others not just yourself, especially those who may be more at risk than yourself.

we are all doomed bob. lol

you might aswell give up now pal.

oh i forgot you did that ages ago didnt you.

always puts a smile on my face reading your doom laden posts.

Good job you wernt born a couple of generations ago when this country had life and death problems magnitudes greater than those of today.

 

[BobKowalski]

Looks like that's just you.

It was a telling phrase. It‘s emotional thought. I don’t feel we have left the EU so I get no emotional satisfaction from leaving the EU therefore we must leave the EU in a better, more emotionally satisfying way.

Which basically is Govt policy. We signed the WA, waved our flags then grew unhappy at the obligations we happily accepted eight months previously. it’s like a addict needing a bigger ‘hit’ each time.

The inevitable outcome is total rupture with Europe. Any compromises, any cooperation will be deemed as too much ‘EU interference’ in our sovereign affairs.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

We left the EU eight months ago. Reneging on a deal that facilitated that exit is a war, it is conflict. Reneging on a binding treaty means no future trade deal. You cannot sign a future deal with a country who has just reneged on a deal you have just signed with them. Anything the EU agreed and ratified with the UK would be meaningless. What would be the point?

A war!! give your head a wobble for goodness sake you big drama queen!

 

[RabidCity]

It was a telling phrase. It‘s emotional thought. I don’t feel we have left the EU so I get no emotional satisfaction from leaving the EU therefore we must leave the EU in a better, more emotionally satisfying way.

Which basically is Govt policy. We signed the WA, waved our flags then grew unhappy at the obligations we happily accepted eight months previously. it’s like a addict needing a bigger ‘hit’ each time.

The inevitable outcome is total rupture with Europe. Any compromises, any cooperation will be deemed as too much ‘EU interference’ in our sovereign affairs.

This is a real issue as it comes down to the root of the vote. EU interference in UK law. It’s so easy to blame things on EU interference going forwards, that we have to negotiate from a point of a separate sovereign nation in every way. So the UK can’t back down on any of it, otherwise more outrage.

We’ve had a historic close relationship with the EU so it’s hard, and probably not the best thing for us. neither of us are going to win.

It’s like a slow motion car crash but it comes down to what the British negotiating team are saying, the EU need to treat the UK as a separate nation and not a rogue state.

Sadly it looks like we’ll both be worse off in the short term.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

This is a real issue as it comes down to the root of the vote. EU interference in UK law. It’s so easy to blame things on EU interference going forwards, that we have to negotiate from a point of a separate sovereign nation in every way. So the UK can’t back down on any of it, otherwise more outrage.

We’ve had a historic close relationship with the EU so it’s hard, and probably not the best thing for us. neither of us are going to win.

It’s like a slow motion car crash but it comes down to what the British negotiating team are saying, the EU need to treat the UK as a separate nation and not a rogue state.

Sadly it looks like we’ll both be worse off in the short term.

The Eu wont be worse off as they've already plugged the gap in trade created by the UK leaving. And in fact after our show of bad faith I would put it past them not to do a deal as we could just rip it up 9 months later.