Alexandole Boris de Pfeffel Johnson

[Windrush48]

India is in trouble because it's highly populated with "many of the type of people Covid is known to go after". What, over 80s? Thousands coming in every week on flights while Johnson faffs around not putting it on the red list, but it's a few hundred people crossing the channel (none of them elderly) that worries you.

You portray yourself.

"What, over 80s?"

No - stop twisting my words and posts please. I was quite obviously referring to the fact that in the UK the BAME people have been hit hard by covid and it may not surprise you to learn that India has a lot of Asian people living there!

"....but it's a few hundred people crossing the channel (none of them elderly) that worries you."

It wasn't a few hundred though was it, in 2020 it was 8000+ and that was four times more than in 2019 (pre-Covid) see: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-55501123. Their age, as I have already said is not the issue, less of a burden themselves to our health service for sure, but young people who have corona pass it on and eventually to the old or clinically vulnerable.

 

[Vic]

"What, over 80s?"

No - stop twisting my words and posts please. I was quite obviously referring to the fact that in the UK the BAME people have been hit hard by covid and it may not surprise you to learn that India has a lot of Asian people living there!

"....but it's a few hundred people crossing the channel (none of them elderly) that worries you."

It wasn't a few hundred though was it, in 2020 it was 8000+ that was four times more than in 2019 (pre-Covid) see: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-55501123. Their age, as I have already said is not the issue, less of a burden themselves to our health service for sure, but young people who have corona pass it on and eventually to the old or clinically vulnerable.

So all these Asians in India and their deaths per million is still one eighth of our rate.

 

[Windrush48]

So all these Asians in India and their deaths per million is still one eighth of our rate.

I have already addressed that in post #14,637 at 7.00 pm yesterday. It is to do with the age demographics of the respective populations: life expectancy in the UK is 80ish whilst in India it is 69. As covid disproportionately attacks the elderly, that is going to skew the figures.

You just want to bash the Tories, whilst I am trying to say that whilst mistakes were made, there have been successes too, notably the vaccine roll-out programme. Furthermore, the virus pandemic was so unprecedented, whatever decisions were made upset some people - it was catch-22 all around. I just don't believe Labour would have been appreciably better and if Corbyn had been in charge, it probably would have been significantly worse.

We are beginning to go round in circles now, you have your views, I have mine - shall we call a truce and go back to talking football instead, away from this sub-forum?

I just bobbed in the other day to say congratulations to Boris on his recent marriage and I have had pelters ever since!

 

[Vic]

I have already addressed that in post #14,637 at 7.00 pm yesterday. It is to do with the age demographics of the respective populations: life expectancy in the UK is 80ish whilst in India it is 69. As covid disproportionately attacks the elderly, that is going to skew the figures.

You just want to bash the Tories, whilst I am trying to say that whilst mistakes were made, there have been successes too, notably the vaccine roll-out programme. Furthermore, the virus pandemic was so unprecedented, whatever decisions were made upset some people - it was catch-22 all around. I just don't believe Labour would have been appreciably better and if Corbyn had been in charge, it probably would have been significantly worse.

We are beginning to go round in circles now, you have your views, I have mine - shall we call a truce and go back to talking football instead, away from this sub-forum?

I just bobbed in the other day to say congratulations to Boris on his recent marriage and I have had pelters ever since!

He's not Boris. He's Liar Johnson.

"Forsaking all others.....?"

 

[Windrush48]

He's not Boris. He's Liar Johnson.

"Forsaking all others.....?"

They all lie though, don't they?

Look at Keir Starmer the other week, when Labour lost a by-election. "I take full responsibility", he said and then a few hours later he sacked Angela Rayner from her role as Labour's National Campaigns Coordinator.

Except such was the outcry, within a day or so he gave her three different and some say even more important jobs!

Yes, the Tories are a joke - that Cummings thing last week proved that, but your lot are even worse.

Bloody Hell, if Labour got their act together they'd be polling a massive lead right now - they are not - in fact I reckon the Batley and Spen by-election could be close and that would be the end of it for Keir, in my opinion.

The problem is & coincidentally we have discussed it in relation to another matter tonight: its a demographic thing (the ageing population*). At the next General Election Labour will worry about the 'red wall', but actually its the 'grey wall' that will really harm them. As people get older, they become more right-thinking (I don't know why). Britain has a vast population in the older age bracket (who are pleased about the vaccine too, by-the-way). I really think Labour are like Man Utd. Fucked for the next 30 years, at least.

*This also accounted for Brexit - millions of elderly struggled to the polls in June 2016 on their zimmers, whilst the younguns stayed in bed thinking "oh, remain will easily win, I don't need to bother voting....", how wrong they were.

 

[NPBlue]

I have already addressed that in post #14,637 at 7.00 pm yesterday. It is to do with the age demographics of the respective populations: life expectancy in the UK is 80ish whilst in India it is 69. As covid disproportionately attacks the elderly, that is going to skew the figures.

You just want to bash the Tories, whilst I am trying to say that whilst mistakes were made, there have been successes too, notably the vaccine roll-out programme. Furthermore, the virus pandemic was so unprecedented, whatever decisions were made upset some people - it was catch-22 all around. I just don't believe Labour would have been appreciably better and if Corbyn had been in charge, it probably would have been significantly worse.

We are beginning to go round in circles now, you have your views, I have mine - shall we call a truce and go back to talking football instead, away from this sub-forum?

I just bobbed in the other day to say congratulations to Boris on his recent marriage and I have had pelters ever since!

No. Forget what Labour would or would not have done, because they are not in power. It's right that the Tories, and in particular Johnson, are receiving criticism because they deserve it. Our governments response to this pandemic has been woeful, and you say 'it's mistakes being made'.

They were more than mistakes, the decisions that were taken flew in the face of common sense. 'Oh yes' they said, 'we are following the science', when it's clear beyond doubt now they didn't listen and were more than reluctant to implement the measures that were required to prevent the spread in a timely fashion.

We saw what was happening in Italy and Spain weeks before the pandemic took hold in the UK, and we kept our borders open. We sent elderly patients back into care homes without testing them beforehand, handing a death sentence to thousands of vulnerable people when the Government lied through their teeth about the protection those people were supposedly receiving. It was bullshit.

The Government lied through their teeth about the availability of PPE to NHS and care home workers. It was bullshit. Countless carers and NHS staff died as a result.

We have one of the worst death rates in the world per capita, we locked down too late and released too early, and as for Christmas, well, the figures in the new year speak for themselves, and you want to defend their actions? Really?

Forget political party alliances, we have been badly let down by this government and they need to be brought to book over it.

Nearly 200,000 sons, mothers, fathers, daughters, brothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, have died due to the incompetence of this government, and all you can say is it would have been worse with a Labour Government?

Get fucking real and wake up. Labour aren't in charge, the tories are, and they've fucked it up spectacularly.

 

[Windrush48]

No. Forget what Labour would or would not have done, because they are not in power. It's right that the Tories, and in particular Johnson, are receiving criticism because they deserve it. Our governments response to this pandemic has been woeful, and you say 'it's mistakes being made'.

They were more than mistakes, the decisions that were taken flew in the face of common sense. 'Oh yes' they said, 'we are following the science', when it's clear beyond doubt now they didn't listen and were more than reluctant to implement the measures that were required to prevent the spread in a timely fashion.

We saw what was happening in Italy and Spain weeks before the pandemic took hold in the UK, and we kept our borders open. We sent elderly patients back into care homes without testing them beforehand, handing a death sentence to thousands of vulnerable people when the Government lied through their teeth about the protection those people were supposedly receiving. It was bullshit.

The Government lied through their teeth about the availability of PPE to NHS and care home workers. It was bullshit. Countless carers and NHS staff died as a result.

We have one of the worst death rates in the world per capita, we locked down too late and released too early, and as for Christmas, well, the figures in the new year speak for themselves, and you want to defend their actions? Really?

Forget political party alliances, we have been badly let down by this government and they need to be brought to book over it.

Nearly 200,000 sons, mothers, fathers, daughters, brothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, have died due to the incompetence of this government, and all you can say is it would have been worse with a Labour Government?

Get fucking real and wake up. Labour aren't in charge, the tories are, and they've fucked it up spectacularly.

1. "Our governments response to this pandemic has been woeful..." Wrong, if you include the vaccine - which is really the only way to get out of this in a country like ours (we are not South Korea, we don't all have our debit cards linked to the government via satnavs on our smart phones). We have done incredibly well.

2. "'We are following the science', when it's clear beyond doubt now they didn't listen...." Wrong again, they did listen to Whitty/Vallance - would they have done all those TV briefings otherwise. Neil Ferguson is now saying - the delay of a week cost 20,000-30,000 lives, but it is easy to say stuff like that, with hindsight. He messed up his reputation anyway, breaking lockdown for a shag, so his reputation is fucked.

3. "We saw what was happening in Italy and Spain weeks before the pandemic took hold in the UK, and we kept our borders open." I have covered this already. We couldn't control our borders during the pandemic; we can't control them during normal times. Globalisation has made borders 'history'. Even in WWI and WWII we nearly lost cos of u-boats sinking our food imports. That was 100 years ago and 80 years ago respectively. People say we should have been better prepared for a global pandemic, but I have heard nobody say perhaps we should consider trying to be self-sufficient in the basics: meat and veg - we probably could if we didn't have 70 million people on a relatively small island. It might help global warming too, if I could eat reasonably priced beef from Yorkshire, instead of cheaper beef from Argentina.

4. "The Government lied through their teeth about the availability of PPE to NHS and care home workers. It was bullshit. Countless carers and NHS staff died as a result." I'm not going to argue on this point, I think you are right.

5. "We have one of the worst death rates in the world per capita, we locked down too late and released too early...." possibly also correct, but as I have said its more complex than that. Our high death rate is also due to: London being a global hub, lots of old people, lots of obese people, lots of old & obese people, lots of BAME people, lots of people who don't follow the rules (I repeat we are not S. Korea). Lots of people who won't accept the vaccine (linked also to the lots of BAME people issue). High population density, many multi-generational households, poverty & deprivation (but not like Africa or India) shall I go on? It's getting late.

Let me just react to the thing that you typed that I found most vexatious: "Forget what Labour would or would not have done, because they are not in power....."

Why are they not in power? Because they set themselves up to fail, by putting in place a leader that would never be elected for the post of Prime Minister by the UK population (in 2019): Jeremy Corbyn. It was Michael Foot (1983) all over again. But to hide behind the fact that Labour are not in power (when they brought it upon themselves) and then blame the Tories for everything that has followed corona-virus related, is just a cop out.

But having said that, its great to have a new person join the discussion: welcome to the party....

 

[ROCKET80]

1) You can't give credit for putting a bolt on the gate once a horse has bolted.

2) They went against the science, the recommendations of the WHO, all the modelling and plenty of British scientists who were demanding stronger measures at the time. There was an arrogance around the decision to go with herd immunity and it back fired badly. Are Whitty and Vallance to blame? Was there political pressure put on them? We'll find out should there ever be an independent inquiry. I'll also add it may have helped had the PM attended the first five COBRA meetings.

3) Of course the UK has control over it's borders. It could have shut them down to visitors at any time, see New Zealand, Australia and every other country that handled the pandemic well. Look how long it took to establish quarantine facilities, and it's still only for countries on the red list. No border can ever be water-tight but the government have the ways and means to control it be it for visitors/residents arriving legally or those trying to enter illegally. Covid wasn't out there sinking boats delivering goods to the UK, imports and exports would still have taken place.

5) The only thing more complicated than not shutting down quick enough and reopening too soon was the messaging from the Government. They would have known about issue impacting all those demographics you listed, which makes their response even more absurd.

Your last part about Labour is the cop out here.

Just because you didn't like their leader at the last election does not in any way put blame on them for the fiasco that followed. They could have had a great leader who still could (and would) have lost to Boris, because you know, my Kingdom for Brexit. In the early stages when Corbyn was trying to hold them to account for their ineptitude he was lambasted for political point scoring.

Years of Tory austerity decimated the NHS and this current group of ne'er do wells in charge are to blame for the Covid fiasco...If you're looking for people other than the Government to blame then may I suggest those that voted for them.

 

[Windrush48]

1) You can't give credit for putting a bolt on the gate once a horse has bolted.

2) They went against the science, the recommendations of the WHO, all the modelling and plenty of British scientists who were demanding stronger measures at the time. There was an arrogance around the decision to go with herd immunity and it back fired badly. Are Whitty and Vallance to blame? Was there political pressure put on them? We'll find out should there ever be an independent inquiry. I'll also add it may have helped had the PM attended the first five COBRA meetings.

3) Of course the UK has control over it's borders. It could have shut them down to visitors at any time, see New Zealand, Australia and every other country that handled the pandemic well. Look how long it took to establish quarantine facilities, and it's still only for countries on the red list. No border can ever be water-tight but the government have the ways and means to control it be it for visitors/residents arriving legally or those trying to enter illegally. Covid wasn't out there sinking boats delivering goods to the UK, imports and exports would still have taken place.

5) The only thing more complicated than not shutting down quick enough and reopening too soon was the messaging from the Government. They would have known about issue impacting all those demographics you listed, which makes their response even more absurd.

Your last part about Labour is the cop out here.

Just because you didn't like their leader at the last election does not in any way put blame on them for the fiasco that followed. They could have had a great leader who still could (and would) have lost to Boris, because you know, my Kingdom for Brexit. In the early stages when Corbyn was trying to hold them to account for their ineptitude he was lambasted for political point scoring.

Years of Tory austerity decimated the NHS and this current group of ne'er do wells in charge are to blame for the Covid fiasco...If you're looking for people other than the Government to blame then may I suggest those that voted for them.

I have to accept much of what you say, but to be fair, can we stop mentioning New Zealand and this pandemic and comparing it to Britain.

New Zealand has a population of nearly 5 million, we have 70 million and the land mass is broadly similar.

They are 4 hours by plane from almost any other significant country.

We are an hour from Europe, in a boat, on a windy day & Heathrow is like the busiest airport on earth.

Just saying.

 

[ROCKET80]

I have to accept much of what you say, but to be fair, can we stop mentioning New Zealand and this pandemic and comparing it to Britain.

New Zealand has a population of nearly 5 million, we have 70 million and the land mass is broadly similar.

They are 4 hours by plane from almost any other significant country.

We are an hour from Europe, in a boat, on a windy day & Heathrow is like the busiest airport on earth.

Just saying.

All countries have differences and similarities, but we're not comparing their demographics what we're comparing is how the government of these nations have acted. On this there are two points of comparison: How have they managed limiting the spread of the virus within its borders and how have they managed to limit the virus getting into the country.

Had New Zealand followed the same decisions as the UK it would have been a disaster. Had the UK mirrored NZ it would likely have seen far fewer deaths and less lockdowns.

NZ has been out of lockdown for over a year now (apart from the odd raised alert level and restrictions on Auckland for the odd case), that is due to strict quarantine of all arrivals into the country and the track and trace system.

For the last 12 months I've been able to go to pubs, restaurants, gigs, comedy festivals, beaches, sporting events etc. We now have quarantine free travel with Australia and the Cook Islands and that is due to the job the government has done.