Another gun massacre in the States (merged)

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Re: Another gun massacre in the States.

Then I obviously can't be pigeonholed

Libertarianism doesn't allow you to tyrannise based on correlation. I have no doubt that installing CCTV into every home in Britain would reduce incidents of child abuse and domestic abuse, but we don't allow it. We punish individuals for their individual acts, not deprive everyone of a right in order to prevent the act from occurring. In theory it wouldn't matter if every person but one shot someone due to having completely open gun access, that person who didn't shoot anybody should not be deprived of their right to have guns. I really do sympathise with the argument on this one. Banning does appear to work for guns whereas it doesn't for drugs and prostitution, but I still hold to the libertarian principle that individuals should be deprived of their individuals rights only for causing harm against individuals, not society at large should be deprived of their rights at large.

Then Libertarianism is fatally flawed. Shame. Would you also allow every person the right to a tank out of interest? A fully functioning one.

As I say, I won't be pigeonholed then.

It won't surprise either of you to say I'm with SWPB on this. The world we inhabit is far too complex and layered for an absolutist, purist stance on every subject. Sometimes you've got to be a little inconsistent to make things work in the real world.

In any event just because someone else says these are the beliefs you have to hold to be a true libertarian, doesn't mean they're right. It's like someone else saying to be a City fan you've got to have been born in Manchester. Just because it's written down in some book somewhere doesn't make it true.

I'm broadly a libertarian and I believe in gun control. If anyone thinks that's oxymoronic I really don't give a flying fuck. I am what I am.

 

[Skashion]

Re: Another gun massacre in the States.

Indeed, it doesn't surprise me.

 

[scenecreamer]

Re: Another gun massacre in the States.

Libertarian is an extremely vague word. There are maybe a dozen various schools of libertarian thought.

 

[scenecreamer]

Re: Another gun massacre in the States.

Libertarianism doesn't allow you to tyrannise based on correlation. I have no doubt that installing CCTV into every home in Britain would reduce incidents of child abuse and domestic abuse, but we don't allow it. We punish individuals for their individual acts, not deprive everyone of a right in order to prevent the act from occurring. In theory it wouldn't matter if every person but one shot someone due to having completely open gun access, that person who didn't shoot anybody should not be deprived of their right to have guns. I really do sympathise with the argument on this one. Banning does appear to work for guns whereas it doesn't for drugs and prostitution, but I still hold to the libertarian principle that individuals should be deprived of their individuals rights only for causing harm against individuals, not society at large should be deprived of their rights at large.

Then Libertarianism is fatally flawed. Shame. Would you also allow every person the right to a tank out of interest? A fully functioning one.

As I say, I won't be pigeonholed then.

How?

It is a bit difficult to argue moral powers to property rights under a limited government whose only role is to protect citizens from coercion and violence when certain external things are the very tools of said coercion and violence, for instance.... If that is the version of "Libertarianism" with which you choose to affiliate

 

[jus moochin]

Re: Another gun massacre in the States.

I've lived in Denver for a few months- some serious numb nuts around there...
always bumping into divvys with concealed weapons

 

[ElanJo]

Re: Another gun massacre in the States.

Then Libertarianism is fatally flawed. Shame. Would you also allow every person the right to a tank out of interest? A fully functioning one.

As I say, I won't be pigeonholed then.

How?

It is a bit difficult to argue moral powers to property rights under a limited government whose only role is to protect citizens from coercion and violence when certain external things are the very tools of said coercion and violence, for instance.... If that is the version of "Libertarianism" with which you choose to affiliate

One of the reasons why I'm an anarchist rather than a minarchist (if what you're saying is that the existence of a state breaks the fundamentals of libertarianism - your post is a bit on the vague side)

 

[Quicksilva21]

Re: Another gun massacre in the States.

Currently in NZ to get a gun licence u need 2 referees to vouch for your good character and then you have a Police interview, then they decide if you do or not... what is it in the UK??

 

[Quicksilva21]

Re: Another gun massacre in the States.

Guns don't kill people. People do. As someone mentioned Canada has similar laws and I wish we did too, I'd certainly feel safer if I had one.

I'm sorry you'd feel safer?! Yeah I'd feel real safe if i had a disagreement with someone or an argument with a family member and in the heat of the moment they pull a gun on me
and shot me. People are very emotional creatures and you don't want to give them easy access to something that can kill you in a second.

I don't have family like that. If someones in my house uninvited in the dead of the night Im blowing their head off, no questions asked, in the USA I'd be a hero, here I'd be a criminal.

What about if some drunk munter stumbles in there after his mate gives him the wrong address? Still fair game?? It happens...

 

[ElanJo]

Re: Another gun massacre in the States.

I'm sorry you'd feel safer?! Yeah I'd feel real safe if i had a disagreement with someone or an argument with a family member and in the heat of the moment they pull a gun on me
and shot me. People are very emotional creatures and you don't want to give them easy access to something that can kill you in a second.

I don't have family like that. If someones in my house uninvited in the dead of the night Im blowing their head off, no questions asked, in the USA I'd be a hero, here I'd be a criminal.

What about if some drunk munter stumbles in there after his mate gives him the wrong address? Still fair game?? It happens...

Steal his kebab

 

[Latics Fan SJK]

Re: Another gun massacre in the States.

Guns don't kill people. People do. As someone mentioned Canada has similar laws and I wish we did too, I'd certainly feel safer if I had one.

I'm sorry you'd feel safer?! Yeah I'd feel real safe if i had a disagreement with someone or an argument with a family member and in the heat of the moment they pull a gun on me
and shot me. People are very emotional creatures and you don't want to give them easy access to something that can kill you in a second.

I don't have family like that. If someones in my house uninvited in the dead of the night Im blowing their head off, no questions asked, in the USA I'd be a hero, here I'd be a criminal.

I bet the majority of families in the US have said that about their own family. Emotion & Anger can get hold of anyone and the last thing we need over here is to have the same access of firearms as they do over there.

You'd be a 'hero' over there simply because their laws allow you to have guns in the first place. You'd be a criminal over here and rightly so.

If we allowed people to shoot whoever they fuck they want because they feel the situation allows such an action, well, we're all fucked then.