Another new Brexit thread

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Ifwecouldjust....... said:
I read through Lucas' post this morning , he has Gove Johnson & Cummings as the main actors in Brexit .... with their hands all over the Electoral breaches... his questions to Johnson asking him to force Gove to respond to various questions and accusations have been met with radio silence... making Johnson complicit and actively obstructing Parliament.

A prison cell should be waiting for the three of them.
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Is there an actual twitter prison for those found guilty in twitter court?
 
I think the attitudes towards the house speaker show a shocking state our society.
As do the condemnation and vilification of anyone and anything that doesn't conform with brexit, including our civil servants, judges, and courts. And the public acceptance of that as normal. These have been, and will be, the core of our system long before and after brexit.

He has performed his role, upheld convention, precedent, and therefore parliamentary correctness democracy. It 'favours' remain, only because the attempts themselves were improper. Nobody is criticising the brexit chasers for trying to ignore procedures, or the law. No. he is a remainer, so he can do no right. The opinions literally split the population like that now, we have binned any other value.

Farage and the media throw vile accusations out, and people just accept, and even promote them as their own. That is how obsessively single issue society has become.

And yes i'd be saying the same about him/the courts if their actions did enable Brexit, fairly, and if it was done right. You can hardly blame them for the attempts of the leave tory mps/government to try bypass democracy, just to implement, democracy.
 
mcfc1632 said:
The effects of it could also allow you to see your Lexit dreamland
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Correct, my dream of a Socialist utopia remains intact.

There in lies the contradiction, Socialism in one country is at odds with the Trotskyite Fourth International, Trotsky advocated proletarian revolution as set out in his theory of "permanent revolution", and believed that a working class state would not be able to hold out against the pressures of a hostile capitalist world unless it became an International movement. A UK isolated through brexit makes the Fourth Interntional less likely not more. Lenin believed Marxism was based on internationalism or it was nothing.

 
Coatigan said:
I think the attitudes towards the house speaker show a shocking state our society.
As do the condemnation and vilification of anyone and anything that doesn't conform with brexit, including our civil servants, judges, and courts. And the public acceptance of that as normal. These have been, and will be, the core of our system long before and after brexit.

He has performed his role, upheld convention, precedent, and therefore parliamentary correctness democracy. It 'favours' remain, only because the attempts themselves were improper. Nobody is criticising the brexit chasers for trying to ignore procedures, or the law. No. he is a remainer, so he can do no right. The opinions literally split the population like that now, we have binned any other value.

Farage and the media throw vile accusations out, and people just accept, and even promote them as their own. That is how obsessively single issue society has become.

And yes i'd be saying the same about him/the courts if their actions did enable Brexit, fairly, and if it was done right. You can hardly blame them for the attempts of the leave tory mps/government to try bypass democracy, just to implement, democracy.
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Do you know anything about Bercow? His past is interesting to say the least. He's demeaned the office of speaker by trying to place himself at the top rather than the middle of the house.
 
Rascal said:
I have sat on the fence throughout this whole charade, primarily because I do not believe the use of direct democracy in a representative democracy is in any way the correct option to solve anything. I have thought long and hard about this, I have always lent towards the lexit position because of my Socialist principles and I have come to a conclusion, for the first time I am no longer a 51/49 49/51 person I am now a 52/48 person.

As a result of genuinely trying to understand it all, even though a lot of it is way above my knowledge and intelligence I now realise for certain that we do have to leave, and the sooner the better. Simply because this impasse is tearing the country apart.

12 months ago I wasn't sure, 6 moths ago I was uncertain, now I know we have to and that whether we all agree or not we must. The referendum for its flaws and there were many has to be enacted upon. Then those who want to remain can campaign to rejoin if they wish but the democratic mandate will have been fulfilled and above all democracy must prevail.

I think Johnsons deal is shit, I think he is lying narcissistic philandering twat, I despise him and his deal is not good for the country but we are where we are and it has to end somewhere. I don't think any of us had any idea of the rancour this referendum would cause and the fallout will last a generation, the effects of it may well make us poorer, allow the hard right Tories to have their Singapore on Thames dreamland and it will damage our standing in the world. But the majority voted for it and without democracy what are we?
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I’m with you, mate. We’ve got to go. Anything else would be an even bigger disaster than leaving. Whst a state of affairs. Well done Dave.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Do you know anything about Bercow? His past is interesting to say the least. He's demeaned the office of speaker by trying to place himself at the top rather than the middle of the house.
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It is correct that he’s conspicuously more of an egomaniac than previous incumbents, but this has been serendipitous for the House imo. A less recalcitrant Speaker would have been a disaster for Parliament in the last twelve months.
 
Rascal said:
I have sat on the fence throughout this whole charade, primarily because I do not believe the use of direct democracy in a representative democracy is in any way the correct option to solve anything. I have thought long and hard about this, I have always lent towards the lexit position because of my Socialist principles and I have come to a conclusion, for the first time I am no longer a 51/49 49/51 person I am now a 52/48 person.

As a result of genuinely trying to understand it all, even though a lot of it is way above my knowledge and intelligence I now realise for certain that we do have to leave, and the sooner the better. Simply because this impasse is tearing the country apart.

12 months ago I wasn't sure, 6 moths ago I was uncertain, now I know we have to and that whether we all agree or not we must. The referendum for its flaws and there were many has to be enacted upon. Then those who want to remain can campaign to rejoin if they wish but the democratic mandate will have been fulfilled and above all democracy must prevail.

I think Johnsons deal is shit, I think he is lying narcissistic philandering twat, I despise him and his deal is not good for the country but we are where we are and it has to end somewhere. I don't think any of us had any idea of the rancour this referendum would cause and the fallout will last a generation, the effects of it may well make us poorer, allow the hard right Tories to have their Singapore on Thames dreamland and it will damage our standing in the world. But the majority voted for it and without democracy what are we?
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Ive always said ... we have to go (unless the Police and others can prove that the referendum was rigged and people are convicted and the referendum declared null and void) But what Im arguing for is the 48% who do not want a hard brexit .... we just need to break from the political union not the trading union
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Well done Dave.
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His arrogance caused all this. His desire to remain in power was the reason, has one man ever caused so much division to our nation.

Self entitlement is damaging. How on earth does he live with himself knowing what he has done to the country he said he loved. History will record him as the man who divided Britain and left us with a ****.

Now we have to move on, fuck him and fuck all those who believed in him.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Ive always said ... we have to go (unless the Police and others can prove that the referendum was rigged and people are convicted and the referendum declared null and void) But what Im arguing for is the 48% who do not want a hard brexit .... we just need to break from the political union not the trading union
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As Jonathon Sumption said, that is the one of the functions of Parliament - to accommodate (to some extent) the wishes of the 48% in a fair and balanced way, whilst still enabling the will of the people. It’s how a democracy should work, rather than the winner takes all scenario that the more selfish Brexiteers have been agitating for. It’s the reason why we had (still have for another week or so) a looser membership of the EU than other countries - and why we still have the pound.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
But its not tho is it...... there are some on here and many many others who want out at any cost ...... there seems to no compromise.
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No there isn’t and that will have been stopped by people voting for mays deal or Boris deal

Leaving with a deal is the only compromise and only way of achieving what you stated.

Unfortunately the tv and radio likes to interview extreme views, farage, Swindon, snp , but the reality is most people just want an end to this
 
Rascal said:
I have sat on the fence throughout this whole charade, primarily because I do not believe the use of direct democracy in a representative democracy is in any way the correct option to solve anything. I have thought long and hard about this, I have always lent towards the lexit position because of my Socialist principles and I have come to a conclusion, for the first time I am no longer a 51/49 49/51 person I am now a 52/48 person.

As a result of genuinely trying to understand it all, even though a lot of it is way above my knowledge and intelligence I now realise for certain that we do have to leave, and the sooner the better. Simply because this impasse is tearing the country apart.

12 months ago I wasn't sure, 6 moths ago I was uncertain, now I know we have to and that whether we all agree or not we must. The referendum for its flaws and there were many has to be enacted upon. Then those who want to remain can campaign to rejoin if they wish but the democratic mandate will have been fulfilled and above all democracy must prevail.

I think Johnsons deal is shit, I think he is lying narcissistic philandering twat, I despise him and his deal is not good for the country but we are where we are and it has to end somewhere. I don't think any of us had any idea of the rancour this referendum would cause and the fallout will last a generation, the effects of it may well make us poorer, allow the hard right Tories to have their Singapore on Thames dreamland and it will damage our standing in the world. But the majority voted for it and without democracy what are we?
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This welcome shift in your position comrade and i feel i can now call you my comrade is in no small part to our recent ceasefire imo and long may it continue.

Another few months of this and you may well have me liking the supreme leader and driving a Trabant!
 
Rascal said:
I have sat on the fence throughout this whole charade, primarily because I do not believe the use of direct democracy in a representative democracy is in any way the correct option to solve anything. I have thought long and hard about this, I have always lent towards the lexit position because of my Socialist principles and I have come to a conclusion, for the first time I am no longer a 51/49 49/51 person I am now a 52/48 person.

As a result of genuinely trying to understand it all, even though a lot of it is way above my knowledge and intelligence I now realise for certain that we do have to leave, and the sooner the better. Simply because this impasse is tearing the country apart.

12 months ago I wasn't sure, 6 moths ago I was uncertain, now I know we have to and that whether we all agree or not we must. The referendum for its flaws and there were many has to be enacted upon. Then those who want to remain can campaign to rejoin if they wish but the democratic mandate will have been fulfilled and above all democracy must prevail.

I think Johnsons deal is shit, I think he is lying narcissistic philandering twat, I despise him and his deal is not good for the country but we are where we are and it has to end somewhere. I don't think any of us had any idea of the rancour this referendum would cause and the fallout will last a generation, the effects of it may well make us poorer, allow the hard right Tories to have their Singapore on Thames dreamland and it will damage our standing in the world. But the majority voted for it and without democracy what are we?
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A fiasco of the highest order.
Asking a binary question when there was a broad range of opinion biased by deliberate lies and exaggeration from all sides.

A better question would have been to get an endorsement of a direction of travel - closer integration with EU or movement away.

The government could then have taken this as a mandate and acted accordingly.
It wouldn't have said we must adopt Euro or Schengen, or allow the narcissistic PM to put the foundation in place to destroy worker's rights, but would have given some clear indication of the people's preferences.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
It is correct that he’s conspicuously more of an egomaniac than previous incumbents, but this has been serendipitous for the House imo. A less recalcitrant Speaker would have been a disaster for Parliament in the last twelve months.
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I saw what you did there and liked it....i liked it a lot.

tenor.gif
 
Rascal said:
How come?
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Mainly because he rejoiced at the death of British troops at the hands of PIRA then invited the same organisation to parliament (or to a Labour event of some kind)...
Rascal said:
What is power without principle and what is principle without power. An intriguing Philosophical question.

As a man of principle I want a Socialist Labour Party, a party I believe that given the right circumstances is electable. The one shining light at the end of the Brexit tunnel, is that leaving makes a Socialism a reality that was not a viable option under the auspices of the EU. Labour should have made the case for leave, but it was hamstrung by the Blairite faction who morphed into the Anti-Corbyn FBFE twitterati movement. They are as extreme as the ERG and as fucking idiotic. They will be sore and hurting that Johnson got a deal, all those metropolitan middle class pseudo liberals are not Socialists but as Eric Hobsbawn the eminent Socialist/Communist philosopher observed Labour needs to have a coalition of the Working class and the middle class to be in power due to there being a strand of the working class that identify with the politics of capital.

Labour needs to attract back those voters it lost under Blair, the party paid a huge price for the Iraq war and if it sensible, which I believe the next manifesto will be because the Tories will be gripped with post Brexit fever then yes power is possible. I am not going to trade my principles in for power under any circumstances, I have done that before and the Iraq War and the Blair government destroyed my faith in centre ground social democracy.
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Ditch the current leadership

And rightly so
 
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