Another new Brexit thread

[PannickAtTheDisco]

The only FTA we’ll get is the sort that a trade union gets with a company before a strike.

For those that aren’t familiar with industrial relations that’s a Failure To Agree.

there's a surprise, was hardly going to be "Full Time Application" or "Finishing Tasks Aptly"...

 

[bluethrunthru]

My point was about timing and logistics. Not about fish or Russia.

We are leaving/have left the EU, I’m not really interested in that debate. The debate is now about moving forward and if it takes a little longer then it takes a little longer, no one budgeted for a global pandemic and I’m sure you wouldn’t say that is some sort of London-centric agenda to keep us in?

If we can get a FTA soon great but why not extend if necessary?

we left 31/1/2020

 

[Metal Biker]

My point was about timing and logistics. Not about fish or Russia.

We are leaving/have left the EU, I’m not really interested in that debate. The debate is now about moving forward and if it takes a little longer then it takes a little longer, no one budgeted for a global pandemic and I’m sure you wouldn’t say that is some sort of London-centric agenda to keep us in?

If we can get a FTA soon great but why not extend if necessary?

Because we have other nations waiting to do trade deals also and we're not going to keep them hanging on forever waiting for the EU to make up it's mind what it wants from the UK.

 

[mcfc1632]

House of cards ponzi scheme is finished, rejoiners I give you the solidarity that we have all witnessed. All sun and sea when its going swimmingly but as soon there is a hint of trouble, shut the borders, look after ones self and refuse to spread the debt in this our union. This virus is going to ruin all economies however the UK albeit in the shit also can introduce a fiscal policy whatever that may be as one. The EU 27 are rowing out of this in different directions the ones out of the Euro will fare better than the others except the rich Northern countries. The shit is going to hit the fan, they couldn't even agree on the budget for the next 7 Years never mind a fiscal plan for the EU 27 through the virus. The Rejoiners will be thanking us in years to come mark my words, even those with vested interest ie. idiotic in the first place to time share, those that own holiday homes or those benefitting from getting EU grants (the rich). I would rather my Tax go to getting our economy up and running again than give it to the EU countries who want to punish us for getting our sovereignty back.

I agree with all of that - except:

"The Rejoiners will be thanking us in years to come mark my words...……….."

Of course, the outcome will be that they should - but these threads demonstrate that they won't be able to bring themselves to do so

 

[mcfc1632]

My point was about timing and logistics. Not about fish or Russia.

We are leaving/have left the EU, I’m not really interested in that debate. The debate is now about moving forward and if it takes a little longer then it takes a little longer, no one budgeted for a global pandemic and I’m sure you wouldn’t say that is some sort of London-centric agenda to keep us in?

If we can get a FTA soon great but why not extend if necessary?

You ask:

"If we can get a FTA soon great but why not extend if necessary?"

​

The simple answer is that because it is far more important for the UK to be free of the EU's control and influence over key policies than it is for the UK to agree to the type of FTA that the EU is seeking

The EU want to extend and keep extending - they would be happy to extend for another 5 years - it would be foolish to fall into that trap

 

[Blue Hefner]

Because we have other nations waiting to do trade deals also and we're not going to keep them hanging on forever waiting for the EU to make up it's mind what it wants from the UK.

With respect, I don’t think America’s priority is a trade deal with the U.K. They will still be counting their dead for months. Same goes for many other countries

Events have overtaken us. I don’t see the harm in pressing pause and taking stock of the new world

 

[Ancient Citizen]

My point was about timing and logistics. Not about fish or Russia.

We are leaving/have left the EU, I’m not really interested in that debate. The debate is now about moving forward and if it takes a little longer then it takes a little longer, no one budgeted for a global pandemic and I’m sure you wouldn’t say that is some sort of London-centric agenda to keep us in?

If we can get a FTA soon great but why not extend if necessary?

Because there's no reason to extend, the EU have had 4 years in the knowledge we're
leaving, they now know that this country will not cede territory, and will not use it in any
discussion. So it's either a FTA, or ta ta, which is now affirmed, so FTA is where we'll be, European
governments realise this, and my money's on it happening.

 

[Metal Biker]

With respect, I don’t think America’s priority is a trade deal with the U.K. They will still be counting their dead for months. Same goes for many other countries

Events have overtaken us. I don’t see the harm in pressing pause and taking stock of the new world

The status quo (pressing pause) is the UK is no longer a member of the EU without a trade deal to speak of.

"Pressing pause" doesn't mean we're back in the EU, you know. We're negotiating a future trade relationship.

 

[Blue Hefner]

The status quo (pressing pause) is the UK is no longer a member of the EU without a trade deal to speak of.

"Pressing pause" doesn't mean we're back in the EU, you know. We're negotiating a future trade relationship.

I’m well aware, thank you

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Indeed - I remember @Gaudion M used to post with such certainty that we would never leave....

I did pre all the first dates we were supposed to leave and I said it as soon as the chequers deal came out. It was pretty clear to me then the Tories were split in 3 camps with, remainers, ERG no deal nutters and some wanting a compromise. At that point it was difficult to see how they would ever agree and they didnt.

What I could not predict is the outcome of the GE and how that would change the landscape. What is lost in that process is how many moderate tories walked out of the party - characters like Jo Johnson, who could not stand as an MP under his brothers intended brexit plan and there are many more like him that left. That mass depature of moderate tories is what i didn't see coming.

What we have left is the brexit nutters and those who are content to allow the low intelligence populist dogma to drive policy even when they know it will cause significant damage to our economy. The Tories now are massively different to what they were 2 years ago, its frightening to me what has become of them. I think no deal is a very serious outcome now and only 7 months away. The level of delusion is at an all time high as nothing has moved on since 2016, the EU will stick to the underlying principle of what you can get as a member and what you must give up if you leave - they have to as why would they all not leave. I'm almost of the view that a no deal would be better for us - I don't see any good outcome and certainly not a sustainable one. At least if there is no deal the lesson will be learnt in a clear an unambiguous way where as a limited FTA will be a less visible slow drag on the economy, there is no upside as we all know.

 

[hgblue]

I did pre all the first dates we were supposed to leave and I said it as soon as the chequers deal came out. It was pretty clear to me then the Tories were split in 3 camps with, remainers, ERG no deal nutters and some wanting a compromise. At that point it was difficult to see how they would ever agree and they didnt.

What I could not predict is the outcome of the GE and how that would change the landscape. What is lost in that process is how many moderate tories walked out of the party - characters like Jo Johnson, who could not stand as an MP under his brothers intended brexit plan and there are many more like him that left. That mass depature of moderate tories is what i didn't see coming.

What we have left is the brexit nutters and those who are content to allow the low intelligence populist dogma to drive policy even when they know it will cause significant damage to our economy. The Tories now are massively different to what they were 2 years ago, its frightening to me what has become of them. I think no deal is a very serious outcome now and only 7 months away. The level of delusion is at an all time high as nothing has moved on since 2016, the EU will stick to the underlying principle of what you can get as a member and what you must give up if you leave - they have to as why would they all not leave. I'm almost of the view that a no deal would be better for us - I don't see any good outcome and certainly not a sustainable one. At least if there is no deal the lesson will be learnt in a clear an unambiguous way where as a limited FTA will be a less visible slow drag on the economy, there is no upside as we all know.

Interesting question you pose, if the UK gets a good deal why would they all not leave? Beats me.

 

[Metal Biker]

I did pre all the first dates we were supposed to leave and I said it as soon as the chequers deal came out. It was pretty clear to me then the Tories were split in 3 camps with, remainers, ERG no deal nutters and some wanting a compromise. At that point it was difficult to see how they would ever agree and they didnt.

What I could not predict is the outcome of the GE and how that would change the landscape. What is lost in that process is how many moderate tories walked out of the party - characters like Jo Johnson, who could not stand as an MP under his brothers intended brexit plan and there are many more like him that left. That mass depature of moderate tories is what i didn't see coming.

What we have left is the brexit nutters and those who are content to allow the low intelligence populist dogma to drive policy even when they know it will cause significant damage to our economy. The Tories now are massively different to what they were 2 years ago, its frightening to me what has become of them. I think no deal is a very serious outcome now and only 7 months away. The level of delusion is at an all time high as nothing has moved on since 2016, the EU will stick to the underlying principle of what you can get as a member and what you must give up if you leave - they have to as why would they all not leave. I'm almost of the view that a no deal would be better for us - I don't see any good outcome and certainly not a sustainable one. At least if there is no deal the lesson will be learnt in a clear an unambiguous way where as a limited FTA will be a less visible slow drag on the economy, there is no upside as we all know.

Except this is a new EU, one where France is in recession, Spain likely to follow suit and Italy absolutely furious with the bloc and also threatening to leave it. Throw in a Germany which is getting fed up with the inhouse bickering, Eastern European EU nations needing more handouts and you have an exceptionally divided EU both on principle and intention.

You're acting like the EU is in a position of solidarity and it isn't. It's fractured and each individual nation is now looking out for it's own interests as well as the integrity of the bloc, but the latter is gradually losing importance to many of the bigger members.

That's the EU we're dealing with from here on in.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Except this is a new EU, one where France is in recession, Spain likely to follow suit and Italy absolutely furious with the bloc and also threatening to leave it. Throw in a Germany which is getting fed up with the inhouse bickering, Eastern European EU nations needing more handouts and you have an exceptionally divided EU both on principle and intention.

You're acting like the EU is in a position of solidarity and it isn't. It's fractured and each individual nation is now looking out for it's own interests as well as the integrity of the bloc, but the latter is gradually losing importance to many of the bigger members.

That's the EU we're dealing with from here on in.

I think you are projecting what you want to see happen there. The EZ countries are way past the point of no return, and even if they were not there is no significant anti EU sentiment growing. There is some but it has always been there. How it shifts will depend on what happens to us and we will get a shit deal that damages our economy so that will be the end of it for a generation. I would make some exceptions for the Eastern European states. Hungary could be thrown out over the next 12 months. That will also be a bad move for them and would serve as a warning to some others that could go the same way.

 

[blueinsa]

I think you are projecting what you want to see happen there. The EZ countries are way past the point of no return, and even if they were not there is no significant anti EU sentiment growing. There is some but it has always been there. How it shifts will depend on what happens to us and we will get a shit deal that damages our economy so that will be the end of it for a generation. I would make some exceptions for the Eastern European states. Hungary could be thrown out over the next 12 months. That will also be a bad move for them and would serve as a warning to some others that could go the same way.

You do realise that posts like this just reaffirm everything we have said about the EU and its intentions and actions to anyone who dares rock the boat?

FTA is on the way that suits all it is that simple because without one, the EU is finished!

 

[west didsblue]

I did pre all the first dates we were supposed to leave and I said it as soon as the chequers deal came out. It was pretty clear to me then the Tories were split in 3 camps with, remainers, ERG no deal nutters and some wanting a compromise. At that point it was difficult to see how they would ever agree and they didnt.

What I could not predict is the outcome of the GE and how that would change the landscape. What is lost in that process is how many moderate tories walked out of the party - characters like Jo Johnson, who could not stand as an MP under his brothers intended brexit plan and there are many more like him that left. That mass depature of moderate tories is what i didn't see coming.

What we have left is the brexit nutters and those who are content to allow the low intelligence populist dogma to drive policy even when they know it will cause significant damage to our economy. The Tories now are massively different to what they were 2 years ago, its frightening to me what has become of them. I think no deal is a very serious outcome now and only 7 months away. The level of delusion is at an all time high as nothing has moved on since 2016, the EU will stick to the underlying principle of what you can get as a member and what you must give up if you leave - they have to as why would they all not leave. I'm almost of the view that a no deal would be better for us - I don't see any good outcome and certainly not a sustainable one. At least if there is no deal the lesson will be learnt in a clear an unambiguous way where as a limited FTA will be a less visible slow drag on the economy, there is no upside as we all know.

Fwiw you weren’t the only one on here who thought we’d never leave. Most of the more outspoken Brexiteers on here said exactly the same on numerous occasions. Presumably to cover their arses if it didn’t go ahead.

 

[Metal Biker]

I think you are projecting what you want to see happen there. The EZ countries are way past the point of no return, and even if they were not there is no significant anti EU sentiment growing. There is some but it has always been there. How it shifts will depend on what happens to us and we will get a shit deal that damages our economy so that will be the end of it for a generation. I would make some exceptions for the Eastern European states. Hungary could be thrown out over the next 12 months. That will also be a bad move for them and would serve as a warning to some others that could go the same way.

As pointed out to you, without a trade deal with the UK, the EU will struggle to survive with all the problems it's facing. That's not to gloss over our own problems, but ours is not an intention of preserving a political trading bloc, is it. It's to ensure hassle free trade amongst nations. The EU can no longer negotiate on a position of "access" to certain UK interests when it's own bloc is disintegrating.

The EU threatening to throw out members is hardly glowing praise for the project is it. The point of the EU was to expand not get smaller and smaller. But several members have had enough of the "project", the UK was merely the first to act upon it and we won't be the last. Hungary, Czechia, Poland, Spain, Greece and more likely Italy. The idea of the "EU" is a dying one stuck in 20th Century concepts. You always seem to mention that a shit deal will damage our economy, but mention nothing of the concept that a shit deal for the EU will result in it's eventual dissolution!

 

[mcfc1632]

Interesting question you pose, if the UK gets a good deal why would they all not leave? Beats me.

I think that I called it right many months ago.

And, whilst I know it irritates the Remainers, it was always true that:-

"We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they face the viable threat of a walkaway option and the political will to use it."

Many months ago I suggested that should that scenario ever come to pass - unlikely as it was in those days when May and Robbins were fronting and compromising the UK - then it will occur in the form of an 11th hour agreement that would make both parties appear resolute.

It was piss-easy for the EU to keep all 27 states onside during the period when those states saw the UK collapsing at every point in the negotiations - what was not to like for them? They would have seen:

• The chances being that the UK would not really leave at all, or
• The UK would be reduced to a genuine vassal state taking direction from the EU on key policies, or
• The negotiations would carry on and on - a favourite approach of the EU

If the UK's mindset has changed then the conditions to make a walkaway viable and supported by political will come to the fore - the Commission will find it much harder to force key nations like Germany and Ireland to toe the line. That would have been the case anyway - even more so given the recovery programmes that they will be embroiled in and need to focus on.

The bottom line is - or at least appears to be that - the EU's position on key areas - especially LPF regulations is wholly unacceptable - they need to acquiesce to accommodate the UK position or the walkaway happens.

How it can be dressed up for internal consumption is up for discussion

 

[mcfc1632]

I did pre all the first dates we were supposed to leave and I said it as soon as the chequers deal came out. It was pretty clear to me then the Tories were split in 3 camps with, remainers, ERG no deal nutters and some wanting a compromise. At that point it was difficult to see how they would ever agree and they didnt.

What I could not predict is the outcome of the GE and how that would change the landscape. What is lost in that process is how many moderate tories walked out of the party - characters like Jo Johnson, who could not stand as an MP under his brothers intended brexit plan and there are many more like him that left. That mass depature of moderate tories is what i didn't see coming.

What we have left is the brexit nutters and those who are content to allow the low intelligence populist dogma to drive policy even when they know it will cause significant damage to our economy. The Tories now are massively different to what they were 2 years ago, its frightening to me what has become of them. I think no deal is a very serious outcome now and only 7 months away. The level of delusion is at an all time high as nothing has moved on since 2016, the EU will stick to the underlying principle of what you can get as a member and what you must give up if you leave - they have to as why would they all not leave. I'm almost of the view that a no deal would be better for us - I don't see any good outcome and certainly not a sustainable one. At least if there is no deal the lesson will be learnt in a clear an unambiguous way where as a limited FTA will be a less visible slow drag on the economy, there is no upside as we all know.

The upshot of that is that you were (thankfully) wrong about how things worked out and utterly wrong to express the levels of certainty that you did - "events dear boy...."

All the rest of your post is simply repeating previous doom-mongering statements - which, given your track record, please understand if they are not seen as so scary by Leavers as you see them.

In fact - given where we are - you should be firmly hoping that you are proved wrong again

 

[mcfc1632]

I think you are projecting what you want to see happen there. The EZ countries are way past the point of no return, and even if they were not there is no significant anti EU sentiment growing. There is some but it has always been there. How it shifts will depend on what happens to us and we will get a shit deal that damages our economy so that will be the end of it for a generation. I would make some exceptions for the Eastern European states. Hungary could be thrown out over the next 12 months. That will also be a bad move for them and would serve as a warning to some others that could go the same way.

Actually, I think that you are projecting what you wish to see happen.

I do not mean that you wish ill for the UK - but some of you are so stuck in your dogma you seem to want to take your bigging up of the EU to the extreme - just to be on the 'winning side'.

If not you should be able to recognise the simple and, IMO, undeniable facts that:

• The EU are seeking to impose constraints on the UK way beyond what it places into their agreements with other independent states
• The EU suggested FTA in no way reflects a Canada ++ - it is a dreadful Canada ------------. We are just seeking what they offer other independent states
• Therefore the EU deal is indeed worse than no-deal and should not be remotely entertained.
• If there is to be no compromise from the EU then it is best we get on with the implementation of the changes and recoveries to address the resultant issues - further delay through extensions when nothing is on offer is wholly detrimental.

Simples really...….

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Actually, I think that you are projecting what you wish to see happen.

I do not mean that you wish ill for the UK - but some of you are so stuck in your dogma you seem to want to take your bigging up of the EU to the extreme - just to be on the 'winning side'.

If not you should be able to recognise the simple and, IMO, undeniable facts that:

• The EU are seeking to impose constraints on the UK way beyond what it places into their agreements with other independent states
• The EU suggested FTA in no way reflects a Canada ++ - it is a dreadful Canada ------------. We are just seeking what they offer other independent states
• Therefore the EU deal is indeed worse than no-deal and should not be remotely entertained.
• If there is to be no compromise from the EU then it is best we get on with the implementation of the changes and recoveries to address the resultant issues - further delay through extensions when nothing is on offer is wholly detrimental.

Simples really...….

The Unicorns are that way ----------->