Listened to some people in Port Talbot on the radio saying they just want to leave Europe asap. Given this part of the UK received more EU help than anywhere else I have come to the conclusion as a remainer that the situation is hopeless.
I want us to leave with no deal and I want leave voters and their politicians to take responsibility for what happens. If shit hits the fan it's down to them. Equally if it all turns out well I'll doff my cap to them.
This is what many in the remain camp fail to understand. For those already in the economic abyss, the threat of queues at Dover or fiscal hardship hold no threat.Port Talbot maybe has a point, the place is a shit tip and the EU rules would not allow a bail out for the Steel plant, but they do have a nice bypass paid for by the EU as part of its transport connectivity policy. While swathes of South Wales were left behind under the Tories when the mines shut, and I get why they voted leave, the promise of something different is enticing, it may be snake oil, but to many even snake oil is better than nothing.
The fantasy is that there could ever be a deal offering better terms than remaining inside the EU, or indeed they would allow us to leave without inflicting significant economic damage. As it now turns out in the case of the backstop, even a deal that would allow us to leave at all as an intact country is impossible. It could have been Karl Marx doing the negotiation and nothing would be different.
I thought that was obvious George and the point of leaving was to go in a different direction completely, which is why if it had been sold correctly, No deal was the only obvious solution. I have said I am happy with no deal, because I just assumed it was obvious.
This is what many in the remain camp fail to understand. For those already in the economic abyss, the threat of queues at Dover or fiscal hardship hold no threat.
I'm fed up of the leavers bleating,nearly as many remainers are pissed off as well,i don't know any self righteous remainers just those who are concerned we don't crash out without a deal and are at the mercy of the orange **** given how much he lies and changes his mind,we are leaving that's a fact,it's not black and white into how we do it though,when we leave it's not the end,it's just the beginningJust imagine a scenario where remain had won in 2016 and for the next three years MPs in parliment had done all they could to overturn the result and get us to leave. Forcing the PM to leave against his will, against the will of the people. Unthinkable isn't it. I wonder how the self righteous remainers would view that scenario? Because that is how 17.4m people feel now.
Absolutely, my point wasn't that they won't be affected by any of the effects of brexit - even the less extreme or more likely ones, but rather that they don't care. Sometimes we just have to understand that other people have different priorities and motivations to our own. This doesn't mean they are evil, and it may even be possible that they are not wrong.Disruption of food supplies and medicines will threaten them as well as anyone else.
They don't care about food and medicine? Where are you getting this from?Absolutely, my point wasn't that they won't be affected by any of the effects of brexit - even the less extreme or more likely ones, but rather that they don't care. Sometimes we just have to understand that other people have different priorities and motivations to our own. This doesn't mean they are evil, and it may even be possible that they are not wrong.
I think it's more likely that it's because it will destroy them too. The current stance by Corbyn is a decent effort at trying to hold his own party back from ripping each others throats out.Do you not think there’s a reason that the left, including Corbyn is dead set against it?
It’ll destroy us.
I'm sure they care about these things, but in the context of the brexit argument they rightly or wrongly don't see them as a priority. It makes you wonder if it's the people that are wrong or perhaps the argument?They don't care about food and medicine? Where are you getting this from?
Its an area I am probably at odds with a number in the Labour Party, I understand though they want to cling to the protections offered by the EU as some where the only protections they had against capitalist exploitation and of course the threat of no deal comes with caveats that have not been answered such as shortages of food and medicine. There is a reasonable risk I will be left without my meds so I do get the fears that are being expressed and I do understand that nobody ever wants the poorest to suffer the most, because I am poor myself. Corbyn wants to protect the poor, that is admirable and I don't blame him for that, it is his job to do his best for our people.Do you not think there’s a reason that the left, including Corbyn is dead set against it?
It’ll destroy us.
Not sure this will fit into the neat little box most folk seem to have leavers in rascal. Might be easier if you could at least put in the odd complaint about immigration or profess some far right sentiment so you can at least partly conform to the cosy stereotype ;-)Its an area I am probably at odds with a number in the Labour Party, I understand though they want to cling to the protections offered by the EU as some where the only protections they had against capitalist exploitation and of course the threat of no deal comes with caveats that have not been answered such as shortages of food and medicine. There is a reasonable risk I will be left without my meds so I do get the fears that are being expressed and I do understand that nobody ever wants the poorest to suffer the most, because I am poor myself. Corbyn wants to protect the poor, that is admirable and I don't blame him for that, it is his job to do his best for our people.
Saying that I have no problem with leaving with no deal, as it will give the chance for a proper Socialist government. Its not ideal, but I wont lose any sleep over it because in the long term we could have the Socialist society I have always longed for. Its a gamble of course, one I can make as I am an old **** in regards to you and life has been hard enough for me anyway.
I have always been against a Tory led Brexit though, because there Brexit has different priorities, a Labour victory in the upcoming GE and then Labour enacting leave on its terms would be agreeable to me, as I don't think it would lead to more neo-liberalism, it would temper the markets and be for the many not for the few.
Its an area I am probably at odds with a number in the Labour Party, I understand though they want to cling to the protections offered by the EU as some where the only protections they had against capitalist exploitation and of course the threat of no deal comes with caveats that have not been answered such as shortages of food and medicine. There is a reasonable risk I will be left without my meds so I do get the fears that are being expressed and I do understand that nobody ever wants the poorest to suffer the most, because I am poor myself. Corbyn wants to protect the poor, that is admirable and I don't blame him for that, it is his job to do his best for our people.
Saying that I have no problem with leaving with no deal, as it will give the chance for a proper Socialist government. Its not ideal, but I wont lose any sleep over it because in the long term we could have the Socialist society I have always longed for. Its a gamble of course, one I can make as I am an old **** in regards to you and life has been hard enough for me anyway.
I have always been against a Tory led Brexit though, because there Brexit has different priorities, a Labour victory in the upcoming GE and then Labour enacting leave on its terms would be agreeable to me, as I don't think it would lead to more neo-liberalism, it would temper the markets and be for the many not for the few.
Surely your beef should be with May and her team,she fucked about for 3yrs and then at the last min played chicken with the house and tried to ram through her crappy deal,mp's have their own opinions and what is the best deal,they have a duty to make decisions for us,boris hasn't been negotiating,he wants no deal and tried to shut down parliament to force it through,the opposite of democracy,leaving was never going to be easy,the terms have to be right for the country to be ok after we leave,blame the tories handling of brexit and the underhand way they have tried to force it throughPissed off that as a country a few hundred MP's have decided that they will ignore the result of the ref and basically the electorate mate thats all but it was fully expected.
As for the rest of your post, agree and its what we have consistently said. These MP's have given the EU the green light to shaft us if they want and to never do a deal that would pass through Parliament.
I just hope at the next GE many in the ERG and many on the remain side are looking for new jobs as they have utterly failed the electorate.
As Napoleon said: Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
He is not scared,once no deal is safely off the table there will be an election,if he had agreed the other night boris could just change the date and no deal would go through,boris is a shitbag who has tried to shut democracy down,it's good it's bitten him in the arseI'm no Tory but if judging from on here the people of this country are so desperate to remain in the EU why is Jezza so shit scared of a General election him and the liberals should walk in. Strange he's so reticent as that's the way to decide this once and for all.
I know and I'm sure you've noticed I keep repeating myself - it indeed is very obvious now and was to some of us years ago. My principal reason for voting to exit the club, since Mr Cameron obliged me with the opportunity, was purely apprehension at its political ambitions. There was never going to be a painless route out but I believed and continue to believe the medium/long term economic impact would be beneficial as well.I thought that was obvious George and the point of leaving was to go in a different direction completely, which is why if it had been sold correctly, No deal was the only obvious solution. I have said I am happy with no deal, because I just assumed it was obvious.
I'm probably not far behind you in the pissed off stakes, mate. Although we've had our differences and come at it from completely different angles, I think everyone can agree what a complete and utter omni-shambles this whole thing is.Pissed off that as a country a few hundred MP's have decided that they will ignore the result of the ref and basically the electorate mate thats all but it was fully expected.
As for the rest of your post, agree and its what we have consistently said. These MP's have given the EU the green light to shaft us if they want and to never do a deal that would pass through Parliament.
I just hope at the next GE many in the ERG and many on the remain side are looking for new jobs as they have utterly failed the electorate.
But surely he's confident of winning so could make his own deals with a majority in parliament, personally having voted Labour all my adult life I don't think he's got a cat in hell's chance.He is not scared,once no deal is safely off the table there will be an election,if he had agreed the other night boris could just change the date and no deal would go through,boris is a shitbag who has tried to shut democracy down,it's good it's bitten him in the arse
Noted.Not sure this will fit into the neat little box most folk seem to have leavers in rascal. Might be easier if you could at least put in the odd complaint about immigration or profess some far right sentiment so you can at least partly conform to the cosy stereotype ;-)