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Another new Brexit thread
- Thread starter Ric
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stonerblue
Well-Known Member
Pot and kettle spring to mind.Not sure why you were surprised at the number of alerts
The count is entirely driven by the number of extreme and batshit-crazy posts you make
Act more moderately and less outright argumentative and insulting - receive less alerts - simples
Seems that the majority of English people looking after their best interests is a shameful actIt is utterly shameful the way the interest of the Irish people has been totally disregarded in any and all Brexit calculations and shows Brexit to be, at its heart, a selfish act.
Yet Irish or Scottish nationalism is something to be admired
Or until we agree to a deal that will keep us in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border.You make a lot of sense
It is best summed up by the long-standing and entirely accurate statement that:
We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option and the political will to use it
(Why do you keep hammering the same point?)
He'll miss stuff when he wants to avoid an answer.I understand.
You have no option but to police me & have to be careful not to miss anything.
That's got the day off to a good start.
According to today’s The Times, most of the independent tories are now in favour of a confirmatory referendum, even Clarke who hates referendums on principle. So if Johnson were to put any deal to a vote it would surely be amended to include a referendum? Johnson just wouldn’t take that risk. The tories might accept a deal of the type that is being discussed if it gets us out of the EU. But if we end up with a referendum, with a choice between a deal that they don’t really like and Remain then Johnson will be toast. I just can’t see it happening.Quite sure the Government knows that the EU will reject its customs points (targets) idea, so it's more a ploy to be seen to propose a 'moderate' solution whose rejection the media will use to paint the EU in a poorer light. Expect a few EU comments today that identify when this was first mooted and rejected and calls for fresh and serious proposals. Ball will be back in Downing Street's side of the court again by tomorrow.
Daft/irrelevant question in response to my post about making preparations to leave the EU if there is no-deal
So the answer is none there, you quite clearly cannot answer.
How is making up our trade agreements post no deal not relevant to preparations?
Rascal
El Presidente
This is why Momentum took action recently to ensure that Corbyn's successor would not be Watson - they know that they are on course to lose
Momentum have no influence on who is chosen as Labour leader.
Its called Maths
Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
Unless I'm missing something, there only seems to be you who's speculating about a deal followed by a second referendum?According to today’s The Times, most of the independent tories are now in favour of a confirmatory referendum, even Clarke who hates referendums on principle. So if Johnson were to put any deal to a vote it would surely be amended to include a referendum? Johnson just wouldn’t take that risk. The tories might accept a deal of the type that is being discussed if it gets us out of the EU. But if we end up with a referendum, with a choice between a deal that they don’t really like and Remain then Johnson will be toast. I just can’t see it happening.
From my perspective, the talk of a second referenfum has been driven by, predicated upon, the lack of progress and inability of parliament to agree upon a deal, or even a position.
Were that to change and a deal were to emerge which a majority of MPs find acceptable, then any need or even thought of a second referenfum evaporates.
Remember the VAST majority of MPs, irrespective of their personal Remain or Leave leanings, are supportive of respecting the 2016 referenfum result. To be in a position where a viable deal is on the table and then to still be calling for another referendum, is incompatible with that position.
In short, I disagree. If a workable deal is found, we won't be having another referendum.
I see you beat me to it. You've rather more succinctly written what I said.
And I have 2 unicorns here for the pair of you which one would you both like? Because there is not a hope in hell of Johnson bringing back a deal that gets rid of the back stop because moving the border back 5-10 miles from the actual border doesn't shift the hard border.
Would 'twere so.Momentum have no influence on who is chosen as Labour leader.
Its called Maths
Seems that the majority of English people looking after their best interests is a shameful act
Yet Irish or Scottish nationalism is something to be admired
Who’s said it’s something to be admired?
I also find it tragic you think causing tensions in Ireland, ignoring internationally agreed peace treaties, involving our own citizens and putting a hard border up is acting in our best interests.
I didn't say that you had made such a claim - indeed I was suggesting the opposite and that it is the very many others that simply wish to see the referendum vote overturned that comments being made were aimed atI’ve never once stated I speak for everyone.
I have said that I know of several remainers on this board who have said themselves they’ll accept a deal at this stage, obviously depending on what’s in it.
I’m purely basing this on my own interactions but the majority of remain voters I speak with, just want a deal and for it to move on now.
My opposition is to no deal, that’s it pure and simple.
Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
What a bizarre comment. Momentum have no influence??? I can't believe you just wrote that. The next leader will be voted in by the party members, and the party is riddled with Momentum supporters and indeed organisers, and you think that will influence nobody? We're talking about an organisation which has been on a witch hunt to even deselect MPs who are not "true believers" and yet in this most important of all decisions - who should be the next Labour leader - they will have "no influence"? I don't think you thought that through mate.Momentum have no influence on who is chosen as Labour leader.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
Unless I'm missing something, there only seems to be you who's speculating about a deal followed by a second referendum?
From my perspective, the talk of a second referenfum has been driven by, predicated upon, the lack of progress and inability of parliament to agree upon a deal, or even a position.
Were that to change and a deal were to emerge which a majority of MPs find acceptable, then any need or even thought of a second referenfum evaporates.
Remember the VAST majority of MPs, irrespective of their personal Remain or Leave leanings, are supportive of respecting the 2016 referenfum result. To be in a position where a viable deal is on the table and then to still be calling for another referendum, is incompatible with that position.
In short, I disagree. If a workable deal is found, we won't be having another referendum.
If a 'workable' deal is found, the ERG will not vote for it.
They will only back an 'unworkable' deal.
So it requires enough of the opposition, to ignore Bozo's attempts to wind them up into personally hating him & ensure they don't vote for anything he comes back with, get together with the Tory centre MPs & vote through a version of May's deal, or convince enough Tories to vote through a much softer Brexit.
Seeing as, whatever happens, Oct 31st does not leave enough time to implement ANY deal & threrefore leaving at that time will be fucking awful, irrespective (but good news for Bozo's backers) it would make great sense for the opposition to just let Bozo stew in the boiling shit he has created & instead have a GE afterwards.
If the Tory/Farage axis win a majority we get the horrible chaos promised, if Corbyn, Lib Dems, SNP win, we have negotiate a 'soft' Brexit agreement followed by a referendum on that, or remain.
That is a pretty silly twisting of someone else's words to try to make them mean something that they did not saySo you are basing your hope on Tory Government lead by Johnson delivering the UK's future prosperity?
I thought you didn't rate Johnson.
I had to check twice that it was you that had posted it rather than one of the usual childish gang
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
I didn't say that you had made such a claim - indeed I was suggesting the opposite and that it is the very many others that simply wish to see the referendum vote overturned that comments being made were aimed at
The majority of 'remain' voters, including myself, accepted that we were leaving the EU, fucking years ago.
It is how that is done, which has been the problem & which is the only reason we are still in.
The referendum was sold as 'doing a deal' with the EU & leaving. It was not sold as a 'win' for far right policies. They have decided, they won, so it has to be their choice, not the majority & anyone who objects, is a traitor.
If Theresa May, had offered the 'Norway' Brexit, (like Farage advertised during the referendum), to the opposition, most would have sailed it through Parliament.
Her own party, would have voted, as a block, against it.
Their idea of 'compromise', is putting customs posts at the Irish border, ie: forcing NO DEAL.
Gareth Barry Conlon
Well-Known Member
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The majority of 'remain' voters, including myself, accepted that we were leaving the EU, fucking years ago.
It is how that is done, which has been the problem & which is the only reason we are still in.
The referendum was sold as 'doing a deal' with the EU & leaving. It was not sold as a 'win' for far right policies. They have decided, they won, so it has to be their choice, not the majority & anyone who objects, is a traitor.
If Theresa May, had offered the 'Norway' Brexit, (like Farage advertised during the referendum), to the opposition, most would have sailed it through Parliament
Her own party, would have voted, as a block, against it.
Their idea of 'compromise', is putting customs posts at the Irish border, ie: forcing NO DEAL.
Agree with this - Following the vote I thought we would end up leaving on some very soft version of brexit - Norway with effectively a CU in operation. This was killed dead but the ERG and from there brexit became toxic.
We have not left because around 100 Tory ERG types insisted it had to be hard line zero compromise. Once they dug themselves in it was clear to me we were never going to leave with a deal - not under a tory government in any event. They kicked up a massive shit storm and now the best way out is remain.
Take comfort in any way you wantI see. Anything rather than answer a simple question.
Also - I did answer it - my words were clear and the consequences of them obvious. I have also said many times that had the EU not opted for weaponising the border issue then the Irish and UK would have found ways to deal with the border challenges without drama and yes the GFA would have been subject to changes
Rascal
El Presidente
Momentum has 40k members out of 560k party members.What a bizarre comment. Momentum have no influence??? I can't believe you just wrote that. The next leader will be voted in by the party members, and the party is riddled with Momentum supporters and indeed organisers, and you think that will influence nobody? We're talking about an organisation which has been on a witch hunt to even deselect MPs who are not "true believers" and yet in this most important of all decisions - who should be the next Labour leader - they will have "no influence"? I don't think you thought that through mate.
Not all momentum members are party members and vice versa. Their influence is over egged, they are a Corbynite campaign group first and foremost and in my opinion they are losing traction rather than gaining it. I believe there influence to be minimal but they do shout loudest.
Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
If a 'workable' deal is found, the ERG will not vote for it.
I kind of stopped reading at that point to be honest. It's pretty obvious that the ERG would back a deal which does not include the current backstop, given they were coming around to voting for the May deal on third time of asking. To suggest otherwise, completely ignores that fact and moreover fails to accommodate any additional motivations to support it due to concern of Boris being trashed if he doesn't deliver and then the corresponding risk (likelihood) of the Tories not winning a majority in the next GE, and perhaps not being able to govern at all. At which point, any kind of Brexit is dead. Far, far better from their perspective to support a softer Brexit than no Brexit at all.
That you don't like these facts is pretty obvious but your keep stating the opposite, doesn't change them.
If you need some crumbs of comfort - and it would seem you are fairly desperate for them - then I suggest you draw them from the very high possibility that Labour won't back any deal of any kind presented by the Tories. And in which case, even if Boris gets all but a handful of the ERG on board, then that probably would not be enough.
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