Another new Brexit thread

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"But I'm only delivering to this side of the border. I don't need paperwork."
"How do we know you're not crossing the border?"

I think they might have got the idea from elsewhere in the EU with a problematic border:

cyprus-map-basicpng.png


The Tory proposal of extending the Northern Ireland border (310 miles) and making it 10 miles wide would make a border area of 3100 square miles


twice the size of Luxembourg................


Lions led by Donkeys
 
I dont think many do, including a sizeable chunk of the leave supporting fraternity. Its simply a case of at this moment what is the alternative? The cupboard is bare.

Honestly I think there will be a low turnout at the next election and alot of spoilt papers.

I think many will take the view that they will have to vote Tory to keep Corbyn out, who in turn may manage to persuade a fair few youngsters to vote for him. The ardent remainers may vote Lib dem, and the ardent Leavers for Farage. The highest turn out and biggest wins could come in Scotland where you have to suspect the SNP will pretty much clean up.

Many like myself are left with no choice to make, we are the moderate centre everyday normal people but the fact that the Labour party are far left and the Tories despite the piffle spoken about them being far right are sadly the closest to the centre and could well win the election on that basis. They wont get my vote but if I were forced to vote for one or the other it would be Tory.

There are millions who have endured the bile and hatred of the left wing remain camp on the basis of wishing to leave the EU that it is highly unlikely we will ever vote Labour again whilst it holds the support of those who have made such accusations. I for one will never stand by the side of or shake the hand or vote for a person who has made such inaccurate and unacceptable accusations.
Good post that

Sums up the position of a lot of moderates well
 
Sinn Fein quote (amid ridiculing the latest "solution"): "in a rare moment of lucidity Johnson did vote for the backstop and he needs to go back to that".
 
If I was to go back, in this very thread, it would be YOU & your fucking pals, whining like stuck up spoilt childeren how you have had your fucing Brexit destroyed by 'no deal' being 'gone' us telling you it's still fucking there & now you are saying it's us who are SUDDENLY realising it.

You are horrible.
Tried twice - could not make sense of it

Were you foaming at the mouth when you were typing?
 
I think it would be the best idea to not have another referendum until we have a written constitutional provision for one.

That lack of provision has been the root cause of the issue to me. It has allowed the referendum result to be ignored

Not sure you can say the referendum result has been ignored, Rasc. Unless something happens we’re leaving the EU at the end of the month.

In other news, on BBC breakfast just now Sally looked like they were forcing her to drink cold sick as she told the nation that the rags only drew last night :)
 
That is a bit unfair, I am on balance around 60/40 in favour of leave, I am full of outrage at Johnson for his disregard for Parliament and his numerous fidelities and peccadillos

I’m 100% in favour of remain but I hope he gets a deal done.

I’m also appalled at his behaviour.

In mcfc1632’s mind everything since the vote has been the fault of remainers, despite the fact we’ve been totally ignored on every government policy since and had absolutely no influence.
 
That of course is a 'respectful' reply, which you would not complain about, if it was you, receiving it.

I don't mind & I just called you 'horrible' in another.

I would point out, that when I got in tonight, I had 6 alerts from you

SIX.

Then got told off for ruining the political spectrum, for telling you what I thought about it.
Not sure why you were surprised at the number of alerts

The count is entirely driven by the number of extreme and batshit-crazy posts you make

Act more moderately and less outright argumentative and insulting - receive less alerts - simples
 
I think it would be the best idea to not have another referendum until we have a written constitutional provision for one.

That lack of provision has been the root cause of the issue to me. It has allowed the referendum result to be ignored
You mean constitutional provision other than sections 100 to 129 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000?

Unless Parliament passes another Act to say a particular referendum is binding, they are all advisory / consultative, but the result has hardly been ignored. Parliament might disregard it but it has not been ignored.
 
Absolutely not this. He completely ignores the one course of action needed to put this whole thing to bed. Or at least to do so to the greatest possible extent. That is to leave the EU.

It's taken 3 years for me to accept it, but after 3 years it's clear we cannot carry on like this.

Another referendum was for a long time my preferred course (notwithstanding my dislike of them in any other circumstance). But what has become clear to me is not only would it be terribly damaging to our democracy as Purplenose describes (and you agree), it wouldn't actually help heal our country's divisions at all. It could even make it worse.

This whole nightmare is never going away until the 2016 referendum mandate is fulfilled.
Good post

The call for another referendum is for no purpose associated to healing divisions - it is all about stopping Brexit pure and simple

It is just the Remainer's preferred method as it will allow them to feel good about themselves as they hide behind what they can claim to be a democratic process
 
The closer this Brexit deadline comes, the more convinced I am we as an electorate have acted with nowhere near the full facts of the debate. My mind changes daily as I hear more and more arguments for each side of the debate. I have always been a waverer, never 100% for or against and usually around 60/40 one way or the other because as Keynes famously said "if the facts change I change my mind"

This morning I have been reading the current edition of the NS and this fascinated me, I will repeat it verbatim for you.

"In 2002, a landmark case came before the Court of Appeal, a group of market traders soon dubbed the "metric martyrs" wanted to sell their goods in pounds and ounces. EU law required them to sell in Kilo's. The Lord Justice of Appeal in the case, John Laws, had to weigh the power relationship between Westminster and Brussels: was EU law supreme of was Parliament sovereign?

With characteristic elegance Laws threaded the needle. Both had primacy. Rights created by EU Law must be incorporated into British Law, and rank supreme over conflicting domestic laws. But the legal foundation of supremacy rested with Parliament , not the EU. The Martyrs were demanding the return of sovereignty they had never lost. Just as Britain had delegated power to Brussels, it could unilaterally take it back, at any time.

It would therefore be a mistake to assert, though it is often asserted, Laws reiterated in an interview 15 years later, that sovereignty was diminished by membership of the EU. To talk about taking back control would be spurious. Britain had control. "We have not lost the power to legislate for ourselves"

John Laws, is Dominic Cummings uncle...………"

The article then goes on to say.

"For Laws also believes the 2016 referendum is constitutionally troublesome" as he put it in 2017, "it troubles me very greatly" he said then, "you are having direct democracy and indirect democracy vying for position" The referendum has muddied the waters of political sovereignty by forcing MPs, the majority who backed remain to vote against their own political consciences" A vote that was supposed to hand back control has, in reality, handed it out to everyone and no one ; Parliament, the people , the government , the courts. All are playing a part on the national stage, but no one is playing the lead. For a referendum has no place in Britain's political system. Parliament being sovereign can not give up sovereignty - even outside of General elections, to its people. In theory this continues to be true, as the 2016 referendum act did not compel Parliament to act. In reality MPs have interpreted the referendum as having the force of law; a law that cannot be repealed. That has left Britain grappling a constitutional crisis"

As I type this I have been listening to our PM on the TV and I cannot help but think we have been conned, but I am still in favour albeit very marginally of leaving.
 
2. The unique set of circumstances we find ourselves in, means for the first time I am now genuinely concerned about the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn being in No. 10. Of course he is toxic as are the ludicrous Labour policies such as scrapping private schools. So in "normal" times he could not possibly win. But these are not normal times. if accepting we must leave the EU is the price to keep Corbyn out, then that's a price I pay willingly.
That is why the Conservatives will win a GE if one is held in the near future - there are many Remain votes in the City centres - they will vote Labour as they always do - but there are also many Remain votes in the areas outside these centres that will be lost as they will place keeping Corbyn out as a higher priority than Brexit

A lot of marginals will fall to the Tories for this reason and because of the split of votes between the LibDems and Labour

This is why Momentum took action recently to ensure that Corbyn's successor would not be Watson - they know that they are on course to lose

So - for Brexit's sake - let's hope it is a GE and not a referendum
 
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Good post

The call for another referendum is for no purpose associated to healing divisions - it is all about stopping Brexit pure and simple

It is just the Remainer's preferred method as it will allow them to feel good about themselves as they hide behind what they can claim to be a democratic process
Nothing in the offing is designed to heal divisions.

Not having a referendum is your preferred method to avoid seeing whether the electorate thinks Brexit should be stopped.
 
What preparations could make up for a free trade deal that covers 60% of our exports?

And that’s not including the deals we have elsewhere through the EU.
Daft/irrelevant question in response to my post about making preparations to leave the EU if there is no-deal
 
Johnson on Today prog thinks that explaining his proposals would make listeners reach for the off button.

Beeb obviously agreed not to press him to talk about the latest rubbish proposal.
 
The closer this Brexit deadline comes, the more convinced I am we as an electorate have acted with nowhere near the full facts of the debate. My mind changes daily as I hear more and more arguments for each side of the debate. I have always been a waverer, never 100% for or against and usually around 60/40 one way or the other because as Keynes famously said "if the facts change I change my mind"

This morning I have been reading the current edition of the NS and this fascinated me, I will repeat it verbatim for you.

"In 2002, a landmark case came before the Court of Appeal, a group of market traders soon dubbed the "metric martyrs" wanted to sell their goods in pounds and ounces. EU law required them to sell in Kilo's. The Lord Justice of Appeal in the case, John Laws, had to weigh the power relationship between Westminster and Brussels: was EU law supreme of was Parliament sovereign?

With characteristic elegance Laws threaded the needle. Both had primacy. Rights created by EU Law must be incorporated into British Law, and rank supreme over conflicting domestic laws. But the legal foundation of supremacy rested with Parliament , not the EU. The Martyrs were demanding the return of sovereignty they had never lost. Just as Britain had delegated power to Brussels, it could unilaterally take it back, at any time.

It would therefore be a mistake to assert, though it is often asserted, Laws reiterated in an interview 15 years later, that sovereignty was diminished by membership of the EU. To talk about taking back control would be spurious. Britain had control. "We have not lost the power to legislate for ourselves"

John Laws, is Dominic Cummings uncle...………"

The article then goes on to say.

"For Laws also believes the 2016 referendum is constitutionally troublesome" as he put it in 2017, "it troubles me very greatly" he said then, "you are having direct democracy and indirect democracy vying for position" The referendum has muddied the waters of political sovereignty by forcing MPs, the majority who backed remain to vote against their own political consciences" A vote that was supposed to hand back control has, in reality, handed it out to everyone and no one ; Parliament, the people , the government , the courts. All are playing a part on the national stage, but no one is playing the lead. For a referendum has no place in Britain's political system. Parliament being sovereign can not give up sovereignty - even outside of General elections, to its people. In theory this continues to be true, as the 2016 referendum act did not compel Parliament to act. In reality MPs have interpreted the referendum as having the force of law; a law that cannot be repealed. That has left Britain grappling a constitutional crisis"

As I type this I have been listening to our PM on the TV and I cannot help but think we have been conned, but I am still in favour albeit very marginally of leaving.

Very interesting, especially the first part. To be honest I always felt we did have control over pretty much everything that matters... although not for the reasons described.

And regards referendums, agree entirely and others have said so repeatedly: Referendums are incompatible with our form of democracy.
 
He's now inventing polls that suggest even remainers "want to get this done".

"The UK is a great power."
 
Bob I am sorry but you are not thinking clearly here.

Of course a no deal Brexit hurts the UK more than the EU, but you cannot surely be arguing it would not hurt the EU. I know you're not arguing that because you are sensible and informed. A no deal Brexit hurts the EU and they do not want it.

And therefore it is unassailable logic that whilst the possibility of a no deal Brexit exists, then the EU might be more tempted to provide us with slightly better deal terms in order to avoid that eventuality. But as soon as there is no possibility of a no deal Brexit, all incentive for the EU to offer improved terms goes away. In fact they are incentivising to NOT offer better terms since that then would be encouraging us to leave, rather than encouraging us to stay. The Benn legislation was truly idiotic, unless it's sole objective was to kill Brexit and maybe it was.

This is not a Tory vs Labour, Brexit vs Remain, Right vs Left argument. It is simply logical fact.
You make a lot of sense

It is best summed up by the long-standing and entirely accurate statement that:

We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option and the political will to use it
 
Not sure why you were surprised at the number of alerts

The count is entirely driven by the number of extreme and batshit-crazy posts you make

Act more moderately and less outright argumentative and insulting - receive less alerts - simples

I understand.

You have no option but to police me & have to be careful not to miss anything.
 
Its not depressing, your summary of the Labour Party gives me hope, because its wrong and all we have to do is prove you are wrong and we win.

I know you will never vote Labour, just as I would never vote Tory, so its the small amount of people that decide elections that need to hear the message. The more that Labour are denigrated, the more like project fear it becomes and the British hate project fear.
You are right and therefore it is people like myself and a good many others on here that Labour need to attract - people that are traditionally Labour voters but are put off by the extent of the shift to the Left

And their failure to make the effort is why they will not win the next election
 
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