Another new Brexit thread

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Before the Lisbon Treaty there was no provision to withdraw from the EU. (Who would want to?) Vienna Conventions might have some general provision.

Article 50 made that provision. If we leave on 31st October it will be under the provisions of Article 50, but the effect will more or less be as if Article 50 didn't exist.

You should have thought of all this before you voted.

He did. ALL leavers read everything, evaluated all the evidence, weighed up the pros and cons and put their crosses in the box that said we’d leave the customs union, the single market, lose just in time manufacturing, take back control of our borders (although not the only actual land border we’ve got), break up the union and be the biggest single WTO experiment in history. They also agreed that Michael Gove knows more about just in time food deliveries than the blokes that run Sainsbury’s, Tesco’s and Waitrose and that Mark Francois knows more about likely economic effects than the governor of the Bank of England. Also, in order to be ready for no-deal, BoJo has committed more spending commitments than the net cost of being in the EU!

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

He did. ALL leavers read everything, evaluated all the evidence, weighed up the pros and cons and put their crosses in the box that said we’d leave the customs union, the single market, lose just in time manufacturing, take back control of our borders (although not the only actual land border we’ve got), break up the union and be the biggest single WTO experiment in history. They also agreed that Michael Gove knows more about just in time food deliveries than the blokes that run Sainsbury’s, Tesco’s and Waitrose and that Mark Francois knows more about likely economic effects than the governor of the Bank of England. Also, in order to be ready for no-deal, BoJo has committed more spending commitments than the net cost of being in the EU!

The problem with belittling leavers or being a bit sarcy about them, is that although it shuts many of them up they still get one vote each. That's what happened in 2016. Like it or not a (small) majority of the population heard the remain and brexit arguments and quietly decided to put a cross in the leave box. If Remainers want to change that, they can carry on taking the piss and sneering at the majority as is their right, but I'm honestly not sure if it's effective. It doesn't seem to have crossed remain supporters minds that perhaps it wasn't immigration or things written on the side of a bus that caused their argument to fail, but rather the weakness of their own case.

 

[Damocles]

The problem with belittling leavers or being a bit sarcy about them, is that although it shuts many of them up they still get one vote each. That's what happened in 2016. Like it or not a (small) majority of the population heard the remain and brexit arguments and quietly decided to put a cross in the leave box. If Remainers want to change that, they can carry on taking the piss and sneering at the majority as is their right, but I'm honestly not sure if it's effective. It doesn't seem to have crossed remain supporters minds that perhaps it wasn't immigration or things written on the side of a bus that caused their argument to fail, but rather the weakness of their own case.

Really good post and very true.

You can't insult or shame people into or out of an opinion. You can only trust in their intelligence and believe that their view is just as valid as your own, so have a conversation with them to find common ground. We've forgotten that sometime in the last decade or two.

The dehumanisation of Leave voters is something that has bothered me for a long time and I think it applies to the entire right wing spectrum. Right wing views are now cast as ignorant, racist, stupid, backwards and insular. That couldn't be further from the truth for the Tory voting people that I know. They believe in social justice, in the free market, in smaller Government and controlled spending.

Somehow the conversation changed from "I disagree with your view" to "I disagree with your view and you are either morally or intellectually inferior to me because of it" and that's extremely alarming

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

The problem with belittling leavers or being a bit sarcy about them, is that although it shuts many of them up they still get one vote each. That's what happened in 2016. Like it or not a (small) majority of the population heard the remain and brexit arguments and quietly decided to put a cross in the leave box. If Remainers want to change that, they can carry on taking the piss and sneering at the majority as is their right, but I'm honestly not sure if it's effective. It doesn't seem to have crossed remain supporters minds that perhaps it wasn't immigration or things written on the side of a bus that caused their argument to fail, but rather the weakness of their own case.

Bingo.

 

[Vic]

The problem with belittling leavers or being a bit sarcy about them, is that although it shuts many of them up they still get one vote each. That's what happened in 2016. Like it or not a (small) majority of the population heard the remain and brexit arguments and quietly decided to put a cross in the leave box. If Remainers want to change that, they can carry on taking the piss and sneering at the majority as is their right, but I'm honestly not sure if it's effective. It doesn't seem to have crossed remain supporters minds that perhaps it wasn't immigration or things written on the side of a bus that caused their argument to fail, but rather the weakness of their own case.

But, but, but.... Most of the Leavers on here didn't need to listen to arguments. They'd made up their mind with no influence.

We're belittling the arguments. We can't help it if confirmation bias, bad memory, or making up shit about not being influenced by anything means they're still bound to their view that it's a good idea.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I got a sneak preview of what happens next with Brexit

 

[Metal Biker]

Why is he just meeting france and Germany I thought 27 countries all have to agree and have equal say.

The EU is 25 member states, and Germany and France.

 

[west didsblue]

The problem with belittling leavers or being a bit sarcy about them, is that although it shuts many of them up they still get one vote each. That's what happened in 2016. Like it or not a (small) majority of the population heard the remain and brexit arguments and quietly decided to put a cross in the leave box. If Remainers want to change that, they can carry on taking the piss and sneering at the majority as is their right, but I'm honestly not sure if it's effective. It doesn't seem to have crossed remain supporters minds that perhaps it wasn't immigration or things written on the side of a bus that caused their argument to fail, but rather the weakness of their own case.

Seems odd that their votes are influenced by people being a bit sarcastic, when they’re not influenced by the right wing press or social media campaigns.

 

[Damocles]

Seems odd that their votes are influenced by people being a bit sarcastic, when they’re not influenced by the right wing press or social media campaigns.

I don't think it's that surprising that social group pressure is more powerful than reading some headlines?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Seems odd that their votes are influenced by people being a bit sarcastic, when they’re not influenced by the right wing press or social media campaigns.

No, their votes were not influenced by sarcasm as such, but if you want to change someone's view the first steps are usually to create some sort of rapport and establish common ground. That way results in trust, a free exchange of ideas and open minds. Think how you have felt at a time in your life when someone has either belittled you or taken the piss - do you think you would have subsequently been open to persuasion by that person? Not a pop at you or anyone on here btw, just a comment on human nature and why I feel what is in many ways a compelling remain argument has failed.

 

[BobKowalski]

Why is he just meeting france and Germany I thought 27 countries all have to agree and have equal say.

Under A50 provisions only around 20 have to agree. Out of this 20 about half don’t give a shit either way about Brexit. Of the 10 that do give a shit around half are bored to tears with it. Out of the remaining 5, 2 just want us to fuck off, 1 wants Gibraltar back, the Germans are just being polite and finally you have the one that really matters and that’s the Republic of Ireland.

Johnson is also going to Dublin.

 

[George Hannah]

The Father of the House wants to take charge......

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...p-no-deal-brexit-tories-swinson-a9063011.html

Nigel Evans, a member of the 1922 Committee of Conservative backbench MPs, told the BBC: "We've filled the vacancy with Boris Johnson and so I really don't know what Ken is talking about." Mr Evans added: "It does seem to be Westminster meets La La Land because it's not as if these ideas are half-baked, I really don't think they've been anywhere near an oven."

 

[BobKowalski]

The problem with belittling leavers or being a bit sarcy about them, is that although it shuts many of them up they still get one vote each. That's what happened in 2016. Like it or not a (small) majority of the population heard the remain and brexit arguments and quietly decided to put a cross in the leave box. If Remainers want to change that, they can carry on taking the piss and sneering at the majority as is their right, but I'm honestly not sure if it's effective. It doesn't seem to have crossed remain supporters minds that perhaps it wasn't immigration or things written on the side of a bus that caused their argument to fail, but rather the weakness of their own case.

Not that quietly. They haven’t stopped banging on about it for the last three years.

 

[yerwot?]

The problem with belittling leavers or being a bit sarcy about them, is that although it shuts many of them up they still get one vote each. That's what happened in 2016. Like it or not a (small) majority of the population heard the remain and brexit arguments and quietly decided to put a cross in the leave box. If Remainers want to change that, they can carry on taking the piss and sneering at the majority as is their right, but I'm honestly not sure if it's effective. It doesn't seem to have crossed remain supporters minds that perhaps it wasn't immigration or things written on the side of a bus that caused their argument to fail, but rather the weakness of their own case.

Have you ever lived in brooklands?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The Father of the House wants to take charge......

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...p-no-deal-brexit-tories-swinson-a9063011.html

Nigel Evans, a member of the 1922 Committee of Conservative backbench MPs, told the BBC: "We've filled the vacancy with Boris Johnson and so I really don't know what Ken is talking about." Mr Evans added: "It does seem to be Westminster meets La La Land because it's not as if these ideas are half-baked, I really don't think they've been anywhere near an oven."

Sounds like the rats are all starting to eat each other. It seems to have escaped reporting that Bj hasn't actually done anything yet. These people are not interested in leaving with any deal. With the exception of corbyn they are just Remainers worried that Boris may have found an even more underhand way to use parliamentary process than they have to date.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Not that quietly. They haven’t stopped banging on about it for the last three years.

That's sort of the point you are missing. The ones 'banging on' are just a vocal minority that will probably never change their mind. It's the rest that need persuading.

 

[smudgedj]

The Father of the House wants to take charge......

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...p-no-deal-brexit-tories-swinson-a9063011.html

Nigel Evans, a member of the 1922 Committee of Conservative backbench MPs, told the BBC: "We've filled the vacancy with Boris Johnson and so I really don't know what Ken is talking about." Mr Evans added: "It does seem to be Westminster meets La La Land because it's not as if these ideas are half-baked, I really don't think they've been anywhere near an oven."

A ‘Government of National Unity' led by hardcore Remainers? Lol

 

[George Hannah]

Sounds like the rats are all starting to eat each other. It seems to have escaped reporting that Bj hasn't actually done anything yet. These people are not interested in leaving with any deal. With the exception of corbyn they are just Remainers worried that Boris may have found an even more underhand way to use parliamentary process than they have to date.

Brexit is about to be taken off the menu nevertheless, Dominic's desire for revenge on the ERG for their stupidity knows no limits.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

A ‘Government of National Unity' led by hardcore Remainers? Lol

Yep get with the messaging they are the good guys.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Brexit is about to be taken off the menu nevertheless, Dominic's desire for revenge on the ERG for their stupidity knows no limits.

You have to ask yourself at what point do we wonder if the thwarting of brexit and attempts to unseat the Pm on the basis of what he might do become unconstitutional or treasonous? I'm surprised Gina Miller isn't more concerned about upholding democracy in this respect.