Another new Brexit thread

[aguero93:20]

As I have to always catch up on this thread my tactic is to read until he pops up (usually every 10-15 pages ) then when he starts commenting I skip the next 5 or so pages. Seems to work.

We may not have the same taste in music Mark but...

 

[aguero93:20]

No, I just get to call it out when people who should know better spout shite about stuff they dont understand. Like you did. Get over it.

It isn’t an area on which opinions based on inadequate understanding have any validity. Like the settings on the large hadron collider, as you yourself pointed out only the other day. So yes you’re entitled to your opinion like flat earthers are entitled to theirs. On this issue in particular in terms of their validity they’re pretty much on a par.

@Chippy_boy I'd point out here that Chris didn't think the judgement would go that way but is perfectly happy to accept that it did.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I am enjoying the discussion with yourself and Alex - and I will try to contribute as much as I can - that said pre-match drinks start in a short while for me

Let me plant a seed though, for Alex and yourself.....

I will try and give as clear a response as I can - I do not claim to have great insights - just happy to discuss, but…..

Generally the majority of the discussion/posts around this topic comes from UK mainland based Remainers who seem to just see the topic as something to use to seek to stop Brexit. With a few notable exceptions, I regard their protestations to be both insincere and ill-informed.

I guess that it should not be a surprise that the better quality content tends to come from those living in N.I. and Ireland - at the coal-face so to speak - although some of the Ireland based posts, not yours, seem to be unnecessarily dripping with 'anti-English' tones.

So let's try and avoid a Westminster situation where all the interaction goes into screaming about what people don't want but little into what people do want.

So - probably have to be after the match now - can you guys give thought to what you would like to see given that the 2016 referendum has taken place and returned a decision to leave the EU. Simply saying versions of 'no fair' and that it should be cancelled just deny the reality - I see the 2016 referendum as every bit as important to my future as you see the GFA. I would hope that you can respect that English people have a right to seek to secure what they see as vital to their nation's future prosperity as I respect yours. What would you see as the options to address the border issue?

Personally I am struggling to get past the opinion that it is entirely within the capabilities of the 3 parties to establish alternative arrangements to maintain a situation where there is still free movement of people and trade - it just needs goodwill on all sides - FFS we could have been working together for 3 years already.

I would see a transition period of 2-3 years during which all arrangements can be finalised and workarounds developed where needed. The EU would/should be able to introduce controls that satisfy its concerns for the SM. Essentially the EU, Ireland and the UK draft the replacement GFA that will last for generations to come.

If there was not a successful outcome (replacement GFA) - and I believe that this will only not occur if there is a lack of goodwill - then there should be a vote in N.I. for self-determination of their future - 2 obvious options are a United Ireland or the Irish Sea border but I suspect you will suggest others.

The problem has been to date that there has been rank incompetence on the UK side and clever manipulation by the EU who want Brexit cancelled and the UK to Remain - or if not full control over key UK policies

What do you see as the options - given the starting point of the UK is leaving the EU. You will see from my viewpoint that I do not see it to be necessary for the UK to retain membership of the SM or CU for things to be resolved.

I’ll do my best to clarify my other response and to reply to this one, although I’m finding it hard to think straight after that match. (What’s the point of having VAR, don’t answer. We all know)

Reading your post I don’t think we are that far off in our assessments but where you talk of goodwill, I see this as a major stumbling block.
I am very pessimistic about the prospect of any solution being found with the present cabinet in Westminster, either now or in the future. Even now I hear he is coming out with a different proposal tomorrow morning that will have a 2025 time limited UK backstop with NI remaining in the Single Market partially but not really and still needing some customs?
Confused and not overly hopeful.

For reasons I outlined earlier what I would see happening is, an essentially English Brexit and NI left to sort it out themselves.
The trouble is it doesn’t solve any border problem. If NI chooses to stay in the UK now or in 2025 you still have conflict with the GFA for citizens that identify otherwise.
I cannot see Boris Johnson or his team engaging meaningfully on this.

I find your point about English interests both valid but conflicting in a UK referendum. A lot in here claim that NI or Scotland can’t say that they voted to stay in, when it was an all UK referendum, but then use an argument that English interest supersedes an existing UK commitment (GFA).

I honestly don’t know how you can resolve this. (Brexit) I replied to George earlier saying he’s probably right about voting to revoke but I really don’t think that’s going to help the situation in Britain or England anyway. I think you should leave but I struggle to see it happening with a deal.
It’s an unfortunate consequence of the accumulation of errors over the last three years.

As I said. I’m finding it hard to think straight at the moment but in essence,
Your proposal had legs maybe a couple of years ago. I think NI had to accept the dropping of May’s redlines and an Irish Sea border but I don’t have hope the way things have gone.

One thing that I have found noticeable in all of this is that although Im from a Dublin Irish Nationalist background and most noticeably Alex coming from a Belfast NI security force background, we have seemed to see the same flaws and drawbacks to what always looked like an English solution to an Irish/UK problem. Does that make sense?
Maybe not.
Maybe I’ll call it a night.

 

[BobKowalski]

Just seeking some clarification on this new wheeze from ‘Two borders’ Johnson.

There will be a border between NI and RoI for North/South Trade and there will be a border between NI and the rest of the U.K. for East/West Trade.

So in effect NI will be the only country that doesn’t have frictionless trade with anyone. RoI has it with the rest of Europe and mainland Britain has it between the three countries of our Union.

Call me old fashioned but in what universe does fucking NI totally up the arse sound like a good idea? And how the fuckity fuck does the DUP support this drooling nonsense?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Just seeking some clarification on this new wheeze from ‘Two borders’ Johnson.

There will be a border between NI and RoI for North/South Trade and there will be a border between NI and the rest of the U.K. for East/West Trade.

So in effect NI will be the only country that doesn’t have frictionless trade with anyone. RoI has it with the rest of Europe and mainland Britain has it between the three countries of our Union.

Call me old fashioned but in what universe does fucking NI totally up the arse sound like a good idea? And how the fuckity fuck does the DUP support this drooling nonsense?

I’m convinced he’s still holding out for No Deal and then it won’t be his problem to solve.

 

[Manc in London]

Has this this proposal from the Government been put together with them knowing it will be rejected by the EU and thus 'no deal' will happen or is it a negotiating tactic to try and persuade the EU to give concessions?

I am beginning to think it's a move towards a 'no deal' and that was Johnson's goal all along.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I’m convinced he’s still holding out for No Deal and then it won’t be his problem to solve.

This will be though - as well as jobs at the plant and jobs in the supply chain there are the jobs reliant on the plants being there - then there are the vast exports ........ fucking disaster for Bozo in the short term - furthermore as I live in the area I know people who work at or who's jobs depend on Nissan Washington. Whilst the majority of the Sunderland electorate are still Leave those who's jobs rely on Nissan being in the EU are shitting bricks are now Remain - people will quickly turn when they see what impact a No Deal has on them and their community - as a Remainer I am looking forward to Hallowe'en as we leave on a No Deal and the country is economically devastated - will be piss funny to see the Tories and the BP reaction and all those Remainers who fell for the lies................we are already losing jobs and growth lets go the whole hog and expose the liars and the deluded to the full impact of what they advocate !

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/01/nissan-uk-qashqai-no-deal-brexit-sunderland-plant

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ere-port-cheshire-plant-no-deal-a9024836.html

 

[west didsblue]

Has this this proposal from the Government been put together with them knowing it will be rejected by the EU and thus 'no deal' will happen or is it a negotiating tactic to try and persuade the EU to give concessions?

I am beginning to think it's a move towards a 'no deal' and that was Johnson's goal all along.

Only beginning to think??

It’s seemed pretty obvious for months.

Maybe I’m wrong and Boris will propose a miraculous deal that all parties will accept it seems fairly clear that the negotiations so far have been a total sham that are there for show so that he can try and blame everyone else when his ridiculous proposal gets the short shrift it deserves.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

This will be though - as well as jobs at the plant and jobs in the supply chain there are the jobs reliant on the plants being there - then there are the vast exports ........ fucking disaster for Bozo in the short term - furthermore as I live in the area I know people who work at or who's jobs depend on Nissan Washington. Whilst the majority of the Sunderland electorate are still Leave those who's jobs rely on Nissan being in the EU are shitting bricks are now Remain - people will quickly turn when they see what impact a No Deal has on them and their community - as a Remainer I am looking forward to Hallowe'en as we leave on a No Deal and the country is economically devastated - will be piss funny to see the Tories and the BP reaction and all those Remainers who fell for the lies................we are already losing jobs and growth lets go the whole hog and expose the liars and the deluded to the full impact of what they advocate !

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/01/nissan-uk-qashqai-no-deal-brexit-sunderland-plant

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ere-port-cheshire-plant-no-deal-a9024836.html

Don’t think he’ll care, it will be job done.
Parliament has voted that No Deal can’t happen, but I see him trying to run the clock down.

Not funny at all.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Has this this proposal from the Government been put together with them knowing it will be rejected by the EU and thus 'no deal' will happen or is it a negotiating tactic to try and persuade the EU to give concessions?

I am beginning to think it's a move towards a 'no deal' and that was Johnson's goal all along.

Is the winning ticket

 

[bluethrunthru]

Don’t think he’ll care, it will be job done.
Parliament has voted that No Deal can’t happen, but I see him trying to run the clock down.

Not funny at all.

Well in a way it is funny how Cummings - a Durham boy - would be happy to see his home turf totally fucked by his ideology - proves what an uber **** he is.

 

[BobKowalski]

Discussion on RTE re the latest from ‘Two Borders’ Johnson.

 

[George Hannah]

..So in effect NI will be the only country that doesn’t have frictionless trade with anyone. RoI has it with the rest of Europe and mainland Britain has it between the three countries of our Union. Call me old fashioned but in what universe does fucking NI totally up the arse sound like a good idea? And how the fuckity fuck does the DUP support this drooling nonsense?

Perhaps they are awaiting a clearer explanation?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Discussion on RTE re the latest from ‘Two Borders’ Johnson.

Yes.
Watched that.
We’re pretty convinced over here that Boris is disingenuous.
Unless parliament stops it, it’s No Deal and whatever that entails.

It’s not going to be anything good.

 

[bluethrunthru]

We’re pretty convinced over here that Boris is disingenuous.

Those interested over here had worked it out out some years ago - former wives and lovers even sooner

 

[carlosthejackal]

Johnson is a lying **** and the clowns who follow him have zero moral compass

 

[BobKowalski]

Yes.
Watched that.
We’re pretty convinced over here that Boris is disingenuous.
Unless parliament stops it, it’s No Deal and whatever that entails.

It’s not going to be anything good.

Well it’s either going to be a deal or extension and as a deal isn’t happening anytime soon then it’s going to be an extension. Big question is for how long.

 

[Manc in London]

Only beginning to think??

It’s seemed pretty obvious for months.

Maybe I’m wrong and Boris will propose a miraculous deal that all parties will accept it seems fairly clear that the negotiations so far have been a total sham that are there for show so that he can try and blame everyone else when his ridiculous proposal gets the short shrift it deserves.

Suspected for a while that it was the case but based on most recent events only makes me more confident.

I did cling on to the fact no-one would be stupid enough to desire a no deal.

 

[west didsblue]

Suspected for a while that it was the case but based on most recent events only makes me more confident.

I did cling on to the fact no-one would be stupid enough to desire a no deal.

I’m convinced it’s all about personal gain and power for him, and he doesn’t give a fuck about the country. It’s sad that there are so many people that won’t even look at the evidence never mind draw conclusions.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Ah, the old Irish proverb - 'wherever we're going we shouldn't be starting from here' - but here, regrettably and unalterably, is where we now are. The constitutionally alien 2016 referendum, the 2017 election with both main parties mandated to honour its result, an underplanned invocation of A50 etc etc are all historical events and can't be wished away when trying to resolve the problem. It now looks like we can't get out at all without inflicting unnecessary economic damage on ourselves because of lack of proper preparation to meet the EU's unchanging objectives. The argument that a second referendum is a legitimate democratic solution would only be allowed to work if Remain won so, very reluctantly, I suggest we hold our noses vote Lib Dem and revoke. Then we need to reform the EU or find another way out if they continue along the path to a superstate.

Bloody hell. George has gone Remain and Chippy gone Leave. This whole Brexit drama has been a rollercoaster of wild unpredictability but I really would have never, ever predicted that happening in the same week.