Another new Brexit thread

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west didsblue said:
I don’t recall the predictions of the consequences of a no deal or unaligned Brexit being set as a benchmark for success. The benchmark for success from mine and most peoples’ points of view is fairly low in that we won’t be worse off but we’ve already had an admission from @KS55 that we probably will be.

I’m honestly trying to understand the real benefits of it but the only ones I’ve been told so far is that we can risk half our agricultural exports so that we can grow more GM crops in our small country to export further afield, and we can stop contributing to the EU budget, neither of which we’ll know for sure until the trade deal is agreed or not. And even if our deal does allow for those two “benefits” it’s far from clear whether they will be good for the country.
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I wonder where we're gonna grow all this stuff given 'the country is full' shite usually spouted.
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
the friction at the borders is because of the eu and how it regulates and protects its trading bloc vis a vis the world, it’s not the uk mate.

johnson said he wanted a free trade agreement and an end to global tariffs around the world not just with the eu.

it was the the eu who said the uk yeah I know you have left and we can talk about a deal with you but

you need follow all our rules and regulations, laws and submit to the jurisdiction of our court.

we need to have fishing access to your waters.

they may as well added and pay us 39 billion a year.
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And so blaming the Eu for this f@ck up begins .... mimicking the Tory press and the Tory party .....
 
stonerblue said:
I wonder where we're gonna grow all this stuff given 'the country is full' shite usually spouted.
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Yep it's fucking laughable.

The only way out of this mess is for the UK to maintain close alignment with the EU on practically everything.

We can have blue passports and Johnson's lies but we need to accept that we're entering vassalage if we don't want an economic nightmare. It's ok to pretend that's not the case though by pointing at minor diversions from some EU rules like it's a great victory if it makes people happy. But at the end of the day BRINO is the only answer. The question is can the Tories deliver it whilst getting away with pretending they haven't?
 
inbetween said:
People like Farage have often touted a front of 'we hate the EU, but not Europe' but the truth of the arguments made is we will be leaving both.

Immigration for example is high on the list of many Brexiteers yet on immigration we are putting barriers between us and Europe which means we are indeed leaving both.

The goal of the government has to be to preserve trade etc which is important, BUT, it is more important to preserve our participation in things like the European arrest warrant which only exists for a very important common good.

There is nothing wrong with a nationalistic/patriotic type rise but we have to challenge any future system that is driven solely by destructive xenophobia and not common sense.
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Unusually, I have a different view to yourself on this - but I see it more as a 'different take' - I certainly do not see is as the UK is leaving Europe.

I can fully accept that the best outcome would be to be able to work closely with the other countries across the continent of Europe to ensure that we have the best cooperation and participation in key areas, such as those you mention.

But the issue for me in the exchanges on these threads is that there is a tendancy (not from you) to simply not place any accountability/responsibility with the EU.

I acknowledge what you say about Farage and the and the roll of imigration - but I would put the major driver for the increase over many years in the desire to Leave the EU down to the remoreseless drive of the EU towards fiscal and political integration - a journey that the UK were not protected from by opt-outs and vetoes - despite how some on here delude themselves.

I would like to see some Remainers on here (again not aimed at you) show even a small amount of understanding of the role of the EU in bringing about Brexit - but events since 2016 seem to have seen the EU morph into some kind of cult with most Remainers on here unable to apportion any blame whatsoever towards the EU.

Now the EU want to use membership/cooperation/participation in bodies that would help all countries as a negotiating chip - they claim to do so in the name of the 27 countries but they are really acting on behalf of their desire to protect their ideology.
 
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mancity2012_eamo said:
I honestly don't know if the poster I was answering is a remainer or a leaver. It doesn't matter. I brought up the empire as an answer to his point of dilution of Englishness, which he seemed to be blaming on the EU. That wasn't a slight on your history, merely a reference to it that he cannot overlook.
The second part in red is as you say obvious. That is the point that was being made again, that your version of English pride (I'll refrain from calling it nationalism) seem at odds with his.
Although you are both arguing the same point or side.

I would argue that English nationalism leads to the same conclusion that Scottish nationalism does regarding the Union (UK). You don't agree that that is your aim or those that think like you.
That's fair enough I understand that. I still believe that's the final destination however unless English nationalism is either separated from the pride and interests that you express, of which I'll repeat, I see nothing wrong with and the images that are allowed be presented by the likes of Farage's following.
This is why I maintain that you need to redefine English Nationalism in the media. When I say you, I mean those that represent you.
Boris is doing a good job so far in your eyes. But he is not averse to pandering to the exact same emotions that you decry as something the remain side make up about the nationalist following.
You call it Little England. I don't really know what that is.
One thing that is true is there is a lot of bollocks written by all sides in here myself included, I'm sure.
One other thing is true, that none of us are right all of the time, no matter how much we think we are.
All could do with looking at the truth in other's opinions.

Only time will tell who was right. And will it really matter then?
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Without dragging things out - I would suggest that there is no substantial English nationalist movement - and I am not seeing a great desire for there to be one.

So we do not stray too far from the point - the mention of English nationalism has been mostly made by Remainers on here seeking to demean Leavers by linking them to the 'types' of people you see acting like 'knuckle draggers' - it has been a cheap approach for 4 years. Little Englander - despite its original meaning - is used in the same way.

The decision to leave the EU was taken by a majority of people seeking to vote in their best interests and not the result of a (non-existent) English nationalist movement.
 
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stonerblue said:
Are you 2 fucking stupid or just blind?
Hannah was the first to post and i responded in kind in exactly the same manner. If my post is seen as making me look 'a bit thick' then so does Hannah's doesn't it.?
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Hey - I was just responding to how your post made you look - I can understand if you now regret making yourself look like that
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Remainer (strange term that now), confidence in Nissan's forthcoming exodus seems to have hit the buffers.
As yet, London's dominance in the financial centre has not been overtaken by Frankfurt, and we've been out 4 days.
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I sense a growing concern in some of them that they may be proven to have been spouting bollocks and they are getting a bit desperate in their need for doom and gloom to hurry up and arrive
 
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BobKowalski said:
No. There will be friction at the border because it’s a natural consequence of leaving the Single Market and Customs Union which are the two things that guarantee no friction.

To repeat. Tariffs are simple. It is reducing non tariff and regulatory barriers that are the issue. To reduce these you need legally harmonised regulations and standards and a common tariff and trade policy. For this you need administration to write and regulate the rules and a judiciary to ensure adherence. In short you need something like the EU.

When May announced threes years ago we would leave the SM and CU then friction at the border became inevitable. It is a consequence of our choice. We have been telling you this for the last three years so have the grace to own it.
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Indeed it was our choice and I do own it.

as for your bollox about in short you need something like the eu. Japan and Canada say hi .
 
mcfc1632 said:
Without dragging things out - I would suggest that there is no substantial English nationalist movement - and I am not seeing a great desire for there to be one.

So we do not stray do far from the point - the mention of English nationalism has been mostly made by Remainers on here seeking to demean Leavers by linking them to the 'types' of people you see acting like 'knuckle draggers' - it has been a cheap approach for 4 years. Little Englander - despite its original meaning - is used in the same way.

The decision to leave the EU was taken by a majority of people seeking to vote in their best interests and not the result of a (non-existent) English nationalism movement.
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I'm not arguing with you on that, but by your own writings on this you see there as being a slight on English pride. You your self compare it with Irish or Scottish Nationalism.
Would you not be better referring to your position as British nationalism (I know that is not a thing) as the interests you are preserving are not purely English. The main goal is UK out of the EU.

I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it either mcfc1632. As I said, I don't see a problem with your stand on this, I just genuinely don't equate what you describe to nationalism in the same way it manifests itself in the other individual states of the union.
 
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