Another new Brexit thread

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Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
A beautiful admission that the trading block has morphed into a federalist govt. Couldn't put it better myself. Thank you.
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And in one fell swoop, those of us who voted out for being opposed to this principle, and warning about it way back in 2015 (some of us even earlier) that this was the future of the EU, one we did not want to see develop or have the UK contribute towards it's creation, have been vindicated, I assume.

I dpn't expect an apology from these people, but a simple "you were right" after years of "it's a dangerous fantasy!" "You're lying, there are no plans for a federal EU!" might be nice. I highly doubt anyone is mature enough to do it, though.
 
BobKowalski said:
The EU is Europe. The EU governs how the continent trades, how it regulates trade, sets standards, decides tariffs, governs professionals in Services, regulates airlines and air safety, it decides whether you pet can travel, whether your driving license is valid, road haulage, animal welfare...well you get the idea.

We can either isolate ourselves from the continent as the poster was suggesting or we can spend the next decade or so trying to negotiate favourable access to Europe for goods and services.

We say we are not interested in favourable access, any old access will do. Our proposals say the opposite. 60% of our food supply says the opposite. Our service industries say the opposite. The UK needs the European market more than the European market needs the UK. To get to the European market you have to go through the gatekeeper. We’ve tried ignoring the gatekeeper, we’ve tried insulting the gatekeeper, we’ve tried going round the gatekeeper and all we have got in four years is a nice new customs border dividing our sovereign territory.

Played lads. Really well played.
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"It" decides no longer thankfully but its at least an admission about what it has become.
 
BobKowalski said:
Fact one. Italy is one of the biggest supporters of the recovery package as it is one of the biggest recipients.

Fact two. To change the EU requires the agreement of its member nations.

This is like explaining math to cats.
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You are actually starting to become one of those people where it gets a bit uncomfortable to watch as they scramble to make silliness about Mickey Mouse points sound 'profound'

I am asking myself if you have been this limited since 2016 - I genuinely had not noticed before

I will put it down to the obsession you explained you had earlier for federalism - but proper simplistic thinking from you today that has exposed all sorts of limitations and lack of even basic analysis

Still - disappointing
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Its asking for things it knows the Eu wont or cant give because if it did there would be no point in Eu membership ......... the UK is heading for no deal ... Get your head round it ... good luck
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Only thing May ever got right - even though she was utterly false.....

No deal is indeed better than a bad deal
 
mcfc1632 said:
You are actually starting to become one of those people where it gets a bit uncomfortable to watch as they scramble to make silliness about Mickey Mouse points sound 'profound'

I am asking myself if you have been this limited since 2016 - I genuinely had not noticed before

I will put it down to the obsession you explained you had earlier for federalism - but proper simplistic thinking from you today that has exposed all sorts of limitations and lack of even basic analysis

Still - disappointing
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He’s ten times more articulate, informed, intelligent and amusing than you could ever be, mate. And I’ve had plenty of run ins and disagreements with him in the past.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I for one look forward to your evidence and fact based response.

We both agree that The crisis will force increased integration from a political and fiscal basis. @BobKowalski has widened that to include Health and Defence and I wouldn’t disagree with that. The only disagreement between the two of you that I can see is that you believe that this urgent push for integration that will come out the back of the crisis will most likely fracture the EU whilst Bob believes (I think) that it probably won’t. Both seem reasonable positions don’t they?
His description of US/U.K. trade relations is depressing but certainly not out with the bounds of possibility. For me, both of you have well articulated positions that go way beyond the normal we won/lost. It would be great if this particular discussion could be concluded without rancour or animosity.
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You seem to have missed the thrust of the main points that I was intending to make - I will put that down to my poor explanation, but TBF - it is a bit late for me to be going into detail. The middle of the night is more my window.

Just quickly though...…..
"......….you believe that this urgent push for integration that will come out the back of the crisis will most likely fracture the EU...……"

whilst perhaps a risk for the EU - is not at all the main thrust of what I am thinking or the point I am making today. I am pointing out that the EU is now determined to use this crisis to force/shoehorn integration - and they will succeed because the countries like Italy will simply have to sign up because they are over a barrel.

So yes - whilst this might = EU27 sign up - it is through strong-arming and blackmail with nations being forced to cave into the acceptance of imposed controls just to gain access to the 'oxygen/funds' they so desperately need.

But then the EU have them locked into controls over their key domestic policies until 2058 - they are all fucked.

Bob is either utterly naïve or utterly disingenuous - there are no other options that I can see. And the bollocks of trying to dress this up as some family of happy nations all linking arms and singing the EU anthem is - well just bollocks.

You and I have exchanged posts recently that have made clear our understanding / agreement that for the EU to survive - I have also insisted that I want it to - it needs to be able to enforce robust levels of integration. The recovery fund will be used to bully nations into accepting those controls.

Italy - the biggest supporter!!!! - a fucking stupid comment.... and I do not think Bob is stupid - so..... I will refrain from pointing out the obvious

They are the nation in the most desperate need is the truth - which is an entirely different thing.

So yes - as is typical of blackmail victims - they will sign up to the controls that release the money and then they will have the EU/ECB doing a number on them and it will be a never ending cycle of being squeezed...….

Re:

"For me, both of you have well articulated positions that go way beyond the normal we won/lost."

I used to think that he had such positions - today and in fact quite a bit recently - he has, IMO, come across as a petulant schoolkid that is miserable because people do not listen to him so much anymore. In the past I used to read his posts with interest and confidence that they would be well researched - recently he just comes across as a blinkered and bitter whinger with an increasingly reduced interest in (genuine) facts - in any meaningful way.

Re: "It would be great if this particular discussion could be concluded without rancour or animosity."

Yeah - it would - but next time you do one of these types of points/requests - can you do so by quoting one of the scores of Remainer posts that you could - Bob has given you plenty of opportunity today - rather than one of mine.

It would do wonders to evidence that you are indeed as balanced as I tend to accept that you are

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Didsbury Dave said:
He’s ten times more articulate, informed, intelligent and amusing than you could ever be, mate. And I’ve had plenty of run ins and disagreements with him in the past.
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Thanks - your opinions have always meant a lot to me
 
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bluethrunthru said:
so they are not countries with a federal set up? I only ask because they say they are.
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I suppose the UK is federal also? The key difference is the US, Germany, UK have directly elected govt. The EU have too many appointees for my liking, and I reject the argument that the appointees are appointed by elected people - that's how you end up with Dominic Cummings over here ;-)
 
There really is no guarantee that the EU grant pool will get agreed. Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands and Austria have huge issues with it.
That said I'm sure the EU can find a fudge so those 4 dont pay much towards it.
 
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