Another new Brexit thread

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

However they all believe that the EU will either disintegrate or become a super-state at some unspecified date in the future so we had to get out before one of those “inevitably” happened.
Meanwhile the government is actually tarmacing over areas of Kent, introducing new red tape to enable goods to move around the UK and putting in place customs infrastructure between GB and NI which will be partially manned by people from the EU! But none of that directly affects them yet so it ain’t happening.

This inevitable EU disintegration / financial collapse / federalisation into a super state rationale is based on very flimsy evidence, like saying that because the SNP exist then Scotland will inevitably become independent. Just because some politicians advocate these ideas does not mean that the 28(7) member states are all going to fall in line at some point.

The irony is that the break up \ disintegration of the UK is now a very serious and live issue that is a direct cause of Brexit. The WA includes the blue print of how NI starts to move toward the ROI and retaining its EU membership and once they go down that road then Scotland will want to follow.

So messy break up of the EU - no real evidence of it happening, some issues accepted but break up - no.

Messy break up of the UK - yes it starts with NI.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

However they all believe that the EU will either disintegrate or become a super-state at some unspecified date in the future so we had to get out before one of those “inevitably” happened.
Meanwhile the government is actually tarmacing over areas of Kent, introducing new red tape to enable goods to move around the UK and putting in place customs infrastructure between GB and NI which will be partially manned by people from the EU! But none of that directly affects them yet so it ain’t happening.

It’s also throwing away it’s 5g network because another country has told it too. I’m not in any way advocating for Chinese involvement in our infrastructure but what changed Boris’s mind? Imagine if it had been the EU making the exact same demand? Of course, had it been the EU, we would have been absolutely integral to that decision making process not merely a “vassal state” doing as it’s told...

 

[mcfc1632]

Just read the last 6 pages of this thread. Not one leaver out of the 3 has managed to make any valid points after the remainers have had a field day pointing out the lies and future shit coming. Lot of distraction and fingers in ears though.

TBF - what you see as "...pointing out the lies and future shit coming..." as been largely a lot of misrepresentation and bollocks off twitter.

Also TBF though - I am sure there would be valid stuff in there to discuss - it just gets so hard to see it through the dross.

But let's not go there - you seem to be keen to raise the level of debate - which is great. What are your thoughts against the points I have just listed?

 

[mcfc1632]

Well - they are negotiating positions....

Just like the EU set out there preferences at the start of negotiations- which were basically full control over the UK's policies in perpetuity.

I don't remember you being offended by their more extreme agenda.

 

[mcfc1632]

If it happens then fine, but I think it will be difficult to distinguish brexit damage from covid damage.

I think that ensuring that all evidence of future economic damage should be blamed on either EU intransigence or Covid should become government policy

 

[west didsblue]

It’s also throwing away it’s 5g network because another country has told it too. I’m not in any way advocating for Chinese involvement in our infrastructure but what changed Boris’s mind? Imagine if it had been the EU making the exact same demand? Of course, had it been the EU, we would have been absolutely integral to that decision making process not merely a “vassal state” doing as it’s told...

As I’m sure you’re aware the main reason has been widely publicised, and it is the total opposite of “taking back control”. We’re now in a position where we’re told exactly what to do by the bigger countries / trading blocs. Not only are we now a vassal state, we’re in vassalage to more than one master. Entirely predictable and warned about, but ignored by most Brexiteers. Of course, the instigators of Brexit know this and don’t care because they’re making money out of it.

 

[Ban-jani]

It’s also throwing away it’s 5g network because another country has told it too. I’m not in any way advocating for Chinese involvement in our infrastructure but what changed Boris’s mind? Imagine if it had been the EU making the exact same demand? Of course, had it been the EU, we would have been absolutely integral to that decision making process not merely a “vassal state” doing as it’s told...

It coincided with China launching a cyber attack on Australia.

I’m not advocating the US had nothing to do with it but it was likely one of several reasons.

Number one being the Chinese are dodgy bastards.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

It coincided with China launching a cyber attack on Australia.

I’m not advocating the US had nothing to do with it but it was likely one of several reasons.

Number one being the Chinese are dodgy bastards.

I’d agree but they’ve not become ‘dodgy bastards’ in 2020. Why we looked at (and are still looking at) allowing the Chinese to build and finance our nuclear power stations has long been a source of dismay to me. As far as I can ascertain, no other developed country outsources this type of thing and is an indictment of our unwillingness to invest for the long term and to promote our own industries. It’s one of the biggest frustrations I have with government (not just this one either) where ideology trumps common sense or doing the right thing.

 

[Ban-jani]

I’d agree but they’ve not become ‘dodgy bastards’ in 2020. Why we looked at (and are still looking at) allowing the Chinese to build and finance our nuclear power stations has long been a source of dismay to me. As far as I can ascertain, no other developed country outsources this type of thing and is an indictment of our unwillingness to invest for the long term and to promote our own industries. It’s one of the biggest frustrations I have with government (not just this one either) where ideology trumps common sense or doing the right thing.

I agree with you entirely but I will just add with Covid and their ever exceedingly aggressive nature, they are getting worse.

My criticisms of the Tories are as long as your arm, I’m sick to death of the fuckers but this is finally a correct decision.

We shouldn’t be relying on totalitarian regimes, that attack the Commonwealth and our stronger allies.

 

[mcfc1632]

Disagree, he spent years baiting and belittling anyone supporting Brexit and Conservatives,
no way did he expect that his brilliant enquiring mind and attitudes would be given the finger.
And given the finger he was, in a big special way, and the shock and dismay oozed from
every pore. Still, we all see things differently, I'm just happy I saw what I saw.

Yep - I think that O'Brien has got a massive chip on his shoulder following the result and has been on a campaign ever since fuelled by an ego that cannot cope with being rejected.

Die-hard Remainers will lap up the sneering which is his style - those wishing to hear debate (rather than his lecturing) will mostly consider him to be a self-obsessed **** (BTW it is OK to call him a **** isn't it? - it seems to be used often on other threads to describe people that are public facing)

 

[west didsblue]

It coincided with China launching a cyber attack on Australia.

I’m not advocating the US had nothing to do with it but it was likely one of several reasons.

Number one being the Chinese are dodgy bastards.

You can kid yourself as much as you like that we’ve suddenly got a conscience. The reality is that the US forced us into this decision. Even if it is the right decision it’s for the wrong reason. Although at the end of the day the decision is more important than the reason for it. I don’t know enough about it to say for sure whether it was the right thing to do at this point in time but I’m as uncomfortable as anyone about relying on China for key infrastructure, whether it be IT or nuclear.

 

[Ban-jani]

You can kid yourself as much as you like that we’ve suddenly got a conscience. The reality is that the US forced us into this decision. Even if it is the right decision it’s for the wrong reason. Although at the end of the day the decision is more important than the reason for it. I don’t know enough about it to say for sure whether it was the right thing to do at this point on time but I’m as uncomfortable as anyone about relying on China for key infrastructure, whether it be IT or nuclear.

How many times do we need to disagree on this subject?

We don’t have a conscious, just look at what we’ve done to our own society but let’s not pretend that it’s because Donald snapped his fingers, we had said no to him in January on this issue already.

Maybe the pressure from the US has increased since Covid and I don’t think the recent cyber attack on Australia can be ruled out as a mitigating factor, its just not as black and white as you see it.

 

[west didsblue]

How many times do we need to disagree on this subject?

We don’t have a conscious, just look at what we’ve done to our own society but let’s not pretend that it’s because Donald snapped his fingers, we had said no to him in January on this issue already.

Maybe the pressure from the US has increased since Covid and I don’t think the recent cyber attack on Australia can be ruled out as a mitigating factor, its just not as black and white as you see it.

Yes you’re right. Forgot for a minute that we keep having the same argument. We’re not going to agree. Ignore my post.

 

[mcfc1632]

I’d agree but they’ve not become ‘dodgy bastards’ in 2020. Why we looked at (and are still looking at) allowing the Chinese to build and finance our nuclear power stations has long been a source of dismay to me. As far as I can ascertain, no other developed country outsources this type of thing and is an indictment of our unwillingness to invest for the long term and to promote our own industries. It’s one of the biggest frustrations I have with government (not just this one either) where ideology trumps common sense or doing the right thing.

Good post that

I would advocate for essential infrastructure to be directly under the control of the UK.

Whilst that is unfortunately impeded by the EU regulations - it is mainly down to UK government failings

 

[Ban-jani]

Good post that

I would advocate for essential infrastructure to be directly under the control of the UK.

Whilst that is unfortunately impeded by the EU regulations - it is mainly down to UK government failings

A fear of mine following Brexit is the Tories selling everything off to foreign powers and companies, that’s obviously a governmental issue but it’s something they’re capable of doing.

We need to bring things in house.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

A fear of mine following Brexit is the Tories selling everything off to foreign powers and companies, that’s obviously a governmental issue but it’s something they’re capable of doing.

We need to bring things in house.

Yes, this and using post brexit/covid economic woes to justify austerity v2

 

[Ban-jani]

Yes, this and using post brexit/covid economic woes to justify austerity v2

I really think they should be extending the transition period, it seems madness to me they’re going to let both impact in the same year.

Fasten your seatbelts!

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

I really think they should be extending the transition period, it seems madness to me they’re going to let both impact in the same year.

Fasten your seatbelts!

If you have no intention of getting a decent deal (or prospect of ever getting one as your demands are considered a non starter by the other side). Why delay. Might as well just get on with the madness. In fact Covid provides cover. Might as well fuck all the ports and supply chains up when they are on their arse anyway as opposed to waiting for then to recover and then cripple them.

 

[Ban-jani]

If you have no intention of getting a decent deal (or prospect of ever getting one as your demands are considered a non starter by the other side). Why delay. Might as well just get on with the madness. In fact Covid provides cover. Might as well fuck all the ports and supply chains up when they are on their arse anyway as opposed to waiting for then to recover and then cripple them.

Good point

 

[BobKowalski]

If you have no intention of getting a decent deal (or prospect of ever getting one as your demands are considered a non starter by the other side). Why delay. Might as well just get on with the madness. In fact Covid provides cover. Might as well fuck all the ports and supply chains up when they are on their arse anyway as opposed to waiting for then to recover and then cripple them.

The flaw in that argument is that supply chains, specifically food supply chains, held up well during primary lockdown. Initial shortages were caused by normal supplies not keeping up with ‘stockpiling’; once they adjusted and Supermarkets capped items the country was fed.

Brexit imposes barriers and costs to these supply chains so it will be a different kind of disruption and it doesn’t take much to trigger the country, witness the ‘toilet roll and pasta panic’ early on in lockdown.

We are going to need 5 giant lorry parks in Kent alone to cope with the extra administrative burden and keep supplies at current levels. The decision just to waive everything through for six months will help but it also needs the French to cooperate on their side. It also needs EU customs to cooperate in NI too because the higher the barrier we build with the EU the higher the barrier we build within our own internal market.