Another new Brexit thread

[bluejon]

If you'd seen the recent developments, and heard the utterances of the failed Napoleon, you'd be directing your ire at the twat who started it.

David Cameron? Yup, hate that twat too.

 

[mcfc1632]

Germany (by far the biggest contributor) as a net contributor basically puts in pretty much exactly the amount Poland and Hungary combined take out.

It starts to make me think of other EU members

We have enjoyed a lot of input from good posters from (the island of) Ireland - but it makes me think if Ireland's electorate have generally considered the impact on them in the years to come. I am not for a moment suggesting that they should not be positive about their membership - just that things will change....

They of course have only recently become net contributors and I wonder what the impact of debt mutualisation will have on them?

Perhaps the EU can introduce a 'buddy system'?

Germany can commit to fund Poland and Hungary - the other Net contributors could perhaps 'pair off' against other non-contributors. Ireland could perhaps agree to ratchet up their contributions to cover for Spain?

As the EU pushes expansion they can agree 'foster countries' for each new entrant?

 

[BobKowalski]

Indeed Bobert, but headlines do not necessarily represent the truth. I'm surprised how much notice you take of the nail tbh. If it wasn't posted on here I'd be unaware that it still existed.

I always take notice of the nail...dangerous things nails.

 

[Shadz69]

It starts to make me think of other EU members

We have enjoyed a lot of input good posters in (the island of) Ireland - but it makes me think if Ireland's electorate have generally considered the impact on them in the years to come. I am not for a moment suggesting that they should not be positive about their membership - just that things will change....

They of course have only recently become net contributors and I wonder what the impact of debt mutualisation will have on them?

Perhaps the EU can introduce a 'buddy system'?

Germany can commit to fund Poland and Hungary - the other Net contributors could perhaps 'pair off' against other bob- contributors. Ireland could perhaps agree to ratchet up their contributions to cover for Spain?

As the EU pushes expansion they can agree 'foster countries' for each new entrant?

After our next General election we will have a Sinn Fein led government so that should be an interesting change in itself. I don't see Irish enthusiasism for the 'EU project' waning much and once both sides adhere to the Irish Protocol we will suffer the pain alongside the UK.We might moan like cunts about it but suffer it we will.

 

[BobKowalski]

At last someone gets it unfortunately their immediate and subsequent concerns will always be GDP. It's all about the green with most remainers. Not heard one champion a federal Europe even though they like the EU.

*Coughs* I’d take the Euro too...

 

[Tb1981]

I've found that the people most likely to read the Daily Mail, are the ones who hate the paper, read the headlines, repeat them online and to others all the while asking "OMG have you READ the Daily Fail racist headline today!?"

Erm, no? Why, have you? And why are you giving them free publicity?

Also I would say a lot of people who don’t like Tory’s or the mail still voted for brexit.
Some people just want to group everyone together into a small group so they can ignore why leave actually won

 

[BobKowalski]

I mean exactly what I said, you and many others have said it would be years before any deals at all would be done, which like every other forecast so far has been complete and utter bollocks. More are in the pipeline.
So 'Rolling over' is not so hard, amending this and that has been achieved, and
yet more outrageous predictions get trashed once again. The places where these deals have been struck clearly don't believe the UK is some inconsequential backwater. I can understand your frustration at this, as you want the country to go down the shitter, but plenty others are quite chuffed with it.

You fail to address the conundrum. Deals. Good or bad? Discuss. So far it’s Vietnam - Yay! Very necessary. Europe - Boo! We can do better without one.

It takes years to complete trade deals that are good for both parties to the deal. Trade deals that are one sided or favour one party can be done quickly.

The trade deal between Australia and US was done in a couple of years. It led to reduced trade.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

It starts to make me think of other EU members

We have enjoyed a lot of input good posters in (the island of) Ireland - but it makes me think if Ireland's electorate have generally considered the impact on them in the years to come. I am not for a moment suggesting that they should not be positive about their membership - just that things will change....

They of course have only recently become net contributors and I wonder what the impact of debt mutualisation will have on them?

Perhaps the EU can introduce a 'buddy system'?

Germany can commit to fund Poland and Hungary - the other Net contributors could perhaps 'pair off' against other bob- contributors. Ireland could perhaps agree to ratchet up their contributions to cover for Spain?

As the EU pushes expansion they can agree 'foster countries' for each new entrant?

We’ll foster NI when they rejoin.
That’s enough for us.

 

[jaseirai]

Steady on mate we can't go upsetting the French.
They stop migrants , flog us quite a bit of electricity and we have to rely on them to keep their channel ports open in the event of blockades.
Know wot I mean?

The electrcal interconnect goes both ways and they escort migrants. The removal of Chinooks and 500 troops from the Sahel is a different matter though.

 

[Shadz69]

Maybe Scotland

We’ll foster NI when they rejoin.
That’s enough for us.

and Wales also.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Thing is, they don't know that the Mail is a pro EU publication, has been for a few years now, since the change of editor. So they're ranting and raving at one of their own, but if it makes for jolly banter, let's not stop it.

He does a bloody good job hiding it then. There was the most vitriolic article today about the EU. It was that unbalanced it could have been copy and pasted from this thread.

 

[west didsblue]

You have to laugh at the irony of us threatening to intercept French fishing vessels when we threw away our airborne maritime reconnaissance capability 10 years ago and now rely on our allies to carry it out for us until the replacements to Nimrod go into service. Guess which country has been helping us out? It begins with F.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/742817/UKFR_MilitaryCooperationA5.pdf
Page 10

 

[Rascal]

At last someone gets it unfortunately their immediate and subsequent concerns will always be GDP. It's all about the green with most remainers. Not heard one champion a federal Europe even though they like the EU.

Correct the argument is never made, they are happy to bumble along on the EU coat tails and guard the status quo. They don't want better, they want same. It is an inherently small C conservative argument, the fear of change.

If a person is so pro capitalist and so pro free market, why are they not arguing for more of it, if they love the EU why don't they love the EU more. Why are they not making the case for a more Democratic, more transparent EU, why are they not shouting from the rooftops about the economies of scale that an EU army would bring, why are they not huge fans of the works of Hayek and Friedman. This Tory Brexit happening is the responsibility of these remain folk who never extolled the virtues of what they profess to hold so dear. If they had the courage of their convictions then they would have made these arguments and more, but instead all they say as you quite rightly state is their concern about the countries GDP. Good little capitalists they are, slaves to the Capitalist class, because what there prevaricating achieved has not only meant that they are the potential victims of a Tory brexit based on Neo-Liberalism orthodoxy on crack cocaine, they have actually enabled it. Maybe it was the Capitalist plan all along and the remain did their useful idiot act and sold out to the extremists by failing to make a case of their own.

 

[Summerbuzz]

Maybe it was the Capitalist plan all along and the remain did their useful idiot act and sold out to the extremists by failing to make a case of their own.

Do you not think that was what moderates were saying about Corbyn? He failed to make a case, failed to make any sort of palpable contribution to the debate, moped about with a bit of a sneer. He didn't campaign.

And now that's the moderates fault? They were told off by the right for being too quick to judge Leavers. Told all their stats and so on were project fear. Whilst the socialists sat on their hands?

This stuff is funnier than any politics I've ever known. I have a mental quote book of the hurtful and abusive tactics of the populist nationalist supporters from the last five years. It's the worse most worrying thing I've ever read. I've another comprising the rhetorical sophistries and dizzying mental acrobatics of the socialists as they arrive back where they started every time, blaming moderates, tacitly supporting and politically enabling the actual populist nationalists.

Both sides: 50% true believer, and 50% those who play along.

It's how easy the manipulation occurs. That's what moderates despise and fear. Why we wouldn't support Corbyn. There's too many very unreliable people in the shadows who will use that sort of ideological cover. They are like ticks. Once in, they start to play. Destructively, abusively, all a series of tactics and distractions designed to cover for them whilst they acquire more status power and loot. It takes a lifetime to remove them.

Brexit turned out to be the moment that made me realise I was wasting my time talking. Just vote. Never again indulge people who are capable of this sort of laughable rhetorical nonsense. Just find others, and vote. No, you will never have an old school socialist Britain. I'm very left of centre, and no-one like me will allow it. Because it's full of crooked figures, and these days, it's most known for exhibiting intolerable levels of political intolerance that will always create a resistant attitude. Never mind the hypocrisy of Momentum lads cancelling anyone who didn't know the right words for outing themselves or being a right wing troll, then ganging up on twitter to call Rachel Riley a 'C*NT' - it all somehow manages to literally enable nationalism and popularism. Because, ? Because you really dream of outright pitch battles with them? Democracy isn't enough for people to live their fantasies of overcoming and crushing our opposite numbers with righteousness AND force. Which is just as well, because the enemies, the battles, are in our heads, and the reality never satisfies even the victor. It just sets up another war.

This whole topic is farcical. Leave and Republicanism and now you lot - you never take responsibility. Ever. Just shuffle the words in someone else's question until you can pose your favoured question back to them, just to change the topic away from YOUR shit, again and again. This is like talking to abusive people, narcissists. People get TIRED. Life is HARD, especially now. Eventually people will be begging to stop this constant nonsense, that's only reached this level due to the effects of the legislative/regulatory gap which social media currently enjoys, and due to general ignorance about the effect these new ways of consuming information have on us.

Which is all a laugh really. You know what - people like me got so unhappy at what was thrown away - amongst other things, the imminent move towards a global regulatory framework designed to tackle international money laundering, and tax avoidance by billionaires, criminal heads of states and the worse behaved of the multinationals - so awfully unhappy that we'd thrown away that once in a lifetime chance - so very angry with the rhetorical games ordinary people started playing - so messed up, that we, the pragmatists stopped looking to make allies for the next deal on the table.

That deal is still there. And it's never talked about. It's the Scandanavian thing. Say bye bye to unions imposing a political ideology onto a work force, let them reform to truly serve the individuals within it, and then solidify their status and recognition within law. Boost up protection for all workers and citizens, and promote a healthy optimism and acceptance.

So, you wanna change the subject forever? Wanna keep fighting until this country falls apart, uncollected rubbish, no healthcare, just jingoistic nonsense? Or will some of you finally see sense, and start looking forward?

 

[hilts]

*Coughs* I’d take the Euro too...

There you go at last

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

What do you think any country would do if another decided to poach on its territory? Many on here hate and despise Britain, and are gleefully hoping for harm to befall it.

Ah here we go you're either a patriot or a traitor. Same old bullshit

 

[bluejon]

Correct the argument is never made, they are happy to bumble along on the EU coat tails and guard the status quo. They don't want better, they want same. It is an inherently small C conservative argument, the fear of change.

If a person is so pro capitalist and so pro free market, why are they not arguing for more of it, if they love the EU why don't they love the EU more. Why are they not making the case for a more Democratic, more transparent EU, why are they not shouting from the rooftops about the economies of scale that an EU army would bring, why are they not huge fans of the works of Hayek and Friedman. This Tory Brexit happening is the responsibility of these remain folk who never extolled the virtues of what they profess to hold so dear. If they had the courage of their convictions then they would have made these arguments and more, but instead all they say as you quite rightly state is their concern about the countries GDP. Good little capitalists they are, slaves to the Capitalist class, because what there prevaricating achieved has not only meant that they are the potential victims of a Tory brexit based on Neo-Liberalism orthodoxy on crack cocaine, they have actually enabled it. Maybe it was the Capitalist plan all along and the remain did their useful idiot act and sold out to the extremists by failing to make a case of their own.

The best argument for remain had nothing to do with the EU, but the as it turns out completely justified fear that handing over such an enormous redrawing of the UK's role and relationship with the rest of the world to the conservative party was going to be a disaster for the majority of this country. It is entirely possible to dislike the EU and think that leave was a shite idea, purely due to who would be conducting it.

 

[BobKowalski]

There you go at last

Said it a long while back...the EU Single Market, Freedom of movement are two of the biggest liberalising moments in European history. Abolishing borders to trade and people is an amazing achievement.

 

[hilts]

The best argument for remain had nothing to do with the EU, but the as it turns out completely justified fear that handing over such an enormous redrawing of the UK's role and relationship with the rest of the world to the conservative party was going to be a disaster for the majority of this country. It is entirely possible to dislike the EU and think that leave was a shite idea, purely due to who would be conducting it.

That would only be a good point if we had a eu ref after every general election rather than every 50 years

 

[mcfc1632]

Golly, an exam!
Haven‘t done one of them since my Banking exams.
I will probably pick the first of your questions and expand. We can see how we get on with that before I spend a lot of time on this.

you Will have noted albeit you don’t mention it that my assessment of Hungary and Poland position was on the mark.

Seeing how you are encouraging intelligent debate on the forum, here is a question for you. What is your assessment of the implication of no deal on the U.K. in 2021? Impacts on the economy, industry, fishing Edit: (for some reason some of my post has been dropped), the individual, the Government and the Opposition. Not interested in the medium or long term, just your assessment of the next year.

I read that and was outraged to see our little princes and princesses are being threatened by gunboats. Is there no depth Johnson is willing to trawl. (ubiquitous fishing pun alert)

My last visit to the thread before I carry on my 'pre-match preparations' - 2 hours ahead where I am so started early

Couple of quick points....

Yes - spotted you were spot on about "..assessment of Hungary and Poland position was on the mark." I applaud that - but it was unlikely that they would not be pressured to fold - I suspect a bad taste is left

Re: "Seeing how you are encouraging intelligent debate on the forum......"

Well actually that was you - and I am trying to support you - but I will deal with that (" implication of no deal on the U.K. in 2021?") - tomorrow, or at a time when I have seen answers to my questions. Let's see how others also support your aim?

Curious that you say:

"..Not interested in the medium or long term, just your assessment of the next year."

Surely immediate inconvenience is well trumped by long-term benefit? Seems a deliberate attempt to avoid a lack of 'proper thinking' to seek to score a point?