Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

No we were told by the Leave campaign it would be easy. A lot of people thought it would be easy because they were told it would be easy and Project Fear was a myth. It was sunny uplands and no downside. Striking a deal with the EU would be a piece of piss and more money for everyone especially the NHS (huzzah!). The EU would turn and run before the might of the UK. Have a look back at the newspapers at the time, hell look at them from January this year with May vowing to crush the EU etc etc.

It was all feverish bollocks then and it is now. Reality is a fucking bitch.

we're we ? i remember lots of people saying the short term we would probably take a hit, but in the long term it would be good. a lot of project was/is a myth though. reality hasn't set in yet, we haven't left yet. one things for sure I'm getting sick of politics now haha

 

[BobKowalski]

I didn't think it was possible, but you may have just outcliched yourself.

People voted the way they did based on ending austerity? Hmm, remind me which organisation insisted upon austerity for it's member states again?

The EU cannot dictate domestic policy to the UK you absolute tit.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

i dont think anyone thought it would be easy, but the projections of doom from the remain camp in the referendum haven't happened. .

Are you fucking kidding me?

What do you think has caused this political turmoil the country is in? The Brexit vote, pure and simple.

And it's only just begun. The financial problems are starting but are just the tip of the iceberg, unless sense wins out over madness and we reverse this suicide before the stool is kicked away.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Are you fucking kidding me?

What do you think has caused this political turmoil the country is in? The Brexit vote, pure and simple.

And it's only just begun. The financial problems are starting but are just the tip of the iceberg, unless sense wins out over madness and we reverse this suicide before the stool is kicked away.

i was talking about economics in the project fear campaign. the reason politics is in a mess is because may called a stupid election. yea lets reverse a democratic decision because the economy might get worse, when in reality we wont know for a few years. even if it got a tiny bit worse I'm sure you'd be calling for it to be reversed..

 

[BobKowalski]

we're we ? i remember lots of people saying the short term we would probably take a hit, but in the long term it would be good. a lot of project was/is a myth though. reality hasn't set in yet, we haven't left yet. one things for sure I'm getting sick of it now haha

You really think the Leave Campaign went with the message 'Vote Leave and you will take a financial hit but don't worry years later you will be better off (hopefully)'. Yeah right, total fucking vote winner.

In fairness the Remain Campaign went with 'Vote Remain and avoid the zombie apocalypse'.

 

[Metal Biker]

The EU cannot dictate domestic policy to the UK you absolute tit.

Oh dear. Unable to converse without resorting to insults? That's a shame.

No, not directly. It does it by ensuring that laws created by the Commission are imposed for all member states of the EU to follow.

Or are you saying that we could simply refuse to allow EU member citizens free movement, free travel etc, ignore the regulations of the common fisheries policy, refuse to pay the membership fee or that additional £4bn that they demanded off us that Cameron fought against, yet failed to counter, yet continue to trade with the EU and face no financial punishments from the EU?

You mean all we had to do was say NO?

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

You really think the Leave Campaign went with the message 'Vote Leave and you will take a financial hit but don't worry years later you will be better off (hopefully)'. Yeah right, total fucking vote winner.

In fairness the Remain Campaign went with 'Vote Remain and avoid the zombie apocalypse'.

no thats my interpretation. and lots of people did suggest that. it was a vote winner, leave won. anyway it wasnt about the economy really it was about other issues imo. the remain camp was awful and offered no positive vision for staying in the eu. a lot of remainers still arent offering one now either. its just ' if we leave everything will be bad'.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

i was talking about economics in the project fear campaign. the reason politics is in a mess is because may called a stupid election. yea lets reverse a democratic decision because the economy might get worse, when in reality we wont know for a few years. even if it got a tiny bit worse I'm sure you'd be calling for it to be reversed..

May caused a stupid election to try to bully Brexit through, with the additional bonus of destroying Labour.
Labour looked to be on their knees, partly because their vote was split by Brexit.
May was Prime Minsiter because Cameron resigned.
Cameron resigned because of the Brexit vote.

This entire fucking nightmare scenario we are walking into was caused by people voting for something they had no real comprehension of.

It wasn't a democratic decision, it was a referendum. It was one which shouldn't have taken place because of it's significance, and it was one conducted on lies which fed ignorance. I'm telling you, this is not over. As the people who voted for this start to realise (and that process is starting already without a doubt) what it actually entails, public opinion will continue to swing and there still could be a way out of this.

 

[Metal Biker]

no thats my interpretation. and lots of people did suggest that. it was a vote winner, leave won. anyway it wasnt about the economy really it was about other issues imo. the remain camp was awful and offered no positive vision for staying in the eu. a lot of remainers still arent offering one now either. its just ' if we leave everything will be bad'.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Ive just seen a labour MP claim the labour manifesto was for remaining in the EU. She clearly didn't read her own party's manifesto. Luckily JR Mogg was at hand to put her straight.

 

[JWBlueman]

I fail to understand how those in the remain camp can argue so passionately that leaving is "bad for the NHS" and bad for public services etc.

Under EU rules this nation which had just shed oceans of working class blood to rid the continent of fascism would have been expressly and legally forbidden from setting up the NHS. We were (by their rules) too smothered in debt to GDP ratio.
We would have been forbidden from building the millions of homes we built in the 40's and 50's for the same reason.

Banks would have been okay though. No problem there. But poor people being provided with free healthcare and education and a roof over their heads from the cradle to the grave? No chance mate. We need that money to go to the financial institutions and big business (all of whom were and are in favour of remain). The underclass can fuck off and think themselves lucky we let them live anywhere.

If you care about people who have next to nothing it is ideologically impossible to be in favour of remain. Impossible.

I have a little respect for remain voters who at least admit they want remain because it improves their already plentiful circumstances - at least they are kind of honest. It's the "I bought the big issue last year so now I care about the homeless' suburban elite who grind my gears.

The eu is a means to keep people with the least in their place, set up and controlled by big business and their friends in govt, ruling by diktat and fear "do as you're told or we will import someone (a white person natch) to do your job for you. We'll also restrict your govt from spending too much on welfare so know your place you pleb".

Remainers at least have the balls to admit it. You're right wing 'im alright jack' selfish fools and bastards.

 

[The perfect fumble]

so what if it was mainly about immigration ? people have legitimate concerns and going off pretty much every opinion poll people want it controlled or reduced. i don't see anything wrong with that. people voted for other things as well. i think it was mainly immigration, laws and having the british government solely in charge. it was less about the economy.

Can you remember when control became the dominant adjective rather than reduction?

David Davis has already indicated there may well be no reduction in immigrant numbers. So no reduction in immigrant numbers and we'll be poorer...Rule Britannia, I can't wait.

 

[BobKowalski]

Oh dear. Unable to converse without resorting to insults? That's a shame.

No, not directly. It does it by ensuring that laws created by the Commission are imposed for all member states of the EU to follow.

Or are you saying that we could simply refuse to allow EU member citizens free movement, free travel etc, ignore the regulations of the common fisheries policy, refuse to pay the membership fee or that additional £4bn that they demanded off us that Cameron fought against, yet failed to counter, yet continue to trade with the EU and face no financial punishments from the EU?

You mean all we had to do was say NO?

Yes. In one sense it is as simple as that. The UK decides its domestic policy. The UK decided it was inits domestic economic interests to be in the single market. The UK looked at the rules for participation and accepted those rules. The UK pretty much invented the EU single market so it's not as if we were blindsided by the damn thing. Equally if in the future we agreed an FTA with any other nation we would accept trade offs/rules on the basis that the benefits outweighed any downside.

A year ago as a sovereign nation we decided to be no longer be part of the EU. That was our decision. The UK alone decides it's domestic agenda. Be that inside or outside the EU. The decision to accept EU rules is ours to take and it is not forced upon us. The UK actually formulated a lot of these EU rules. The EU is shaped by its member states. It's why any deal we strike with the EU has to be agreed by every member state and can be struck down by any member state.

Your initial post that austerity was forced upon the UK by the EU was the dumbest thing I have read on this forum and by Christ I have read some moronic shite on here.

 

[BobKowalski]

I fail to understand how those in the remain camp can argue so passionately that leaving is "bad for the NHS" and bad for public services etc.

Under EU rules this nation which had just shed oceans of working class blood to rid the continent of fascism would have been expressly and legally forbidden from setting up the NHS. We were (by their rules) too smothered in debt to GDP ratio.
We would have been forbidden from building the millions of homes we built in the 40's and 50's for the same reason.

Banks would have been okay though. No problem there. But poor people being provided with free healthcare and education and a roof over their heads from the cradle to the grave? No chance mate. We need that money to go to the financial institutions and big business (all of whom were and are in favour of remain). The underclass can fuck off and think themselves lucky we let them live anywhere.

If you care about people who have next to nothing it is ideologically impossible to be in favour of remain. Impossible.

I have a little respect for remain voters who at least admit they want remain because it improves their already plentiful circumstances - at least they are kind of honest. It's the "I bought the big issue last year so now I care about the homeless' suburban elite who grind my gears.

The eu is a means to keep people with the least in their place, set up and controlled by big business and their friends in govt, ruling by diktat and fear "do as you're told or we will import someone (a white person natch) to do your job for you. We'll also restrict your govt from spending too much on welfare so know your place you pleb".

Remainers at least have the balls to admit it. You're right wing 'im alright jack' selfish fools and bastards.

Where the fuck does the EU say that you can't have free or national healthcare? Seriously what the fuck are you babbling about?

 

[Saddleworth2]

May caused a stupid election to try to bully Brexit through, with the additional bonus of destroying Labour.
Labour looked to be on their knees, partly because their vote was split by Brexit.
May was Prime Minsiter because Cameron resigned.
Cameron resigned because of the Brexit vote.

This entire fucking nightmare scenario we are walking into was caused by people voting for something they had no real comprehension of.

It wasn't a democratic decision, it was a referendum. It was one which shouldn't have taken place because of it's significance, and it was one conducted on lies which fed ignorance. I'm telling you, this is not over. As the people who voted for this start to realise (and that process is starting already without a doubt) what it actually entails, public opinion will continue to swing and there still could be a way out of this.

The end position may well be a political fudge that we have left but to all intents and purposes we haven't (still members of single market or a quasi solution based on the Norway model). Or we will have another referendum to support the new terms and it will be defeated.

 

[JWBlueman]

Where the fuck does the EU say that you can't have free or national healthcare? Seriously what the fuck are you babbling about?

No. the point was if the eu had existed in 1945 it would have forbidden The uk govt from setting up the NHS as the country was , by the eu rules, in too much debt. Ditto for the social houses we built.

There is a reason every big business virtually, and every bank and financial institution is vehemently in favour of remain. And it isn't because they care about people who have little.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I fail to understand how those in the remain camp can argue so passionately that leaving is "bad for the NHS" and bad for public services etc.

Under EU rules this nation which had just shed oceans of working class blood to rid the continent of fascism would have been expressly and legally forbidden from setting up the NHS. We were (by their rules) too smothered in debt to GDP ratio.
We would have been forbidden from building the millions of homes we built in the 40's and 50's for the same reason.

Banks would have been okay though. No problem there. But poor people being provided with free healthcare and education and a roof over their heads from the cradle to the grave? No chance mate. We need that money to go to the financial institutions and big business (all of whom were and are in favour of remain). The underclass can fuck off and think themselves lucky we let them live anywhere.

If you care about people who have next to nothing it is ideologically impossible to be in favour of remain. Impossible.

I have a little respect for remain voters who at least admit they want remain because it improves their already plentiful circumstances - at least they are kind of honest. It's the "I bought the big issue last year so now I care about the homeless' suburban elite who grind my gears.

The eu is a means to keep people with the least in their place, set up and controlled by big business and their friends in govt, ruling by diktat and fear "do as you're told or we will import someone (a white person natch) to do your job for you. We'll also restrict your govt from spending too much on welfare so know your place you pleb".

Remainers at least have the balls to admit it. You're right wing 'im alright jack' selfish fools and bastards.

since the vote, the number of nurses from EU countries applying for jobs in the NHS has fallen by 90%. I think free movement of labour has actually helped the NHS keep going.

 

[The perfect fumble]

You've spoken to everyone who voted leave have you? You do get around.

I believe most remainers voted the way they did because they didn't want to be seen as racist by their peers given the narrative coming from the remain campaigners that wanting to end unfettered migration from EU member states meant you were a little englander, uneducated racist.

I mean, what the flip was this all about if not aimed at emotionally blackmailing the populous? See the contrasting differences between the two individuals presented? See how you are not meant to identify with the angry looking, shaven headed, heavily tattooed man on the RIGHT?
Notice the woman on the LEFT embracing her culture, calmly, respectfully, defiant in the face of such aggression? How would this image not influence the mindset of the easily lead, making the subject about leaving the EU, a political organisation, one about social strains and issues and not wanting to be seen as politically incorrect? "Vote remain, or we'll think you're a racist." How many remainers were suckered in by this message?

Noises off, who cares. Remain lost the referendum last summer, now leavers are in the process of losing their victory and you're waving crap like this around.

You know this isn't going the way you thought it would, you've lost the initiative. It's not flowing the remainer way either, but we're bystanders in all this, but here you are still taking pot shots at me while your house is being ransacked! All a bit peculiar....Enjoy.

 

[JWBlueman]

since the vote, the number of nurses from EU countries applying for jobs in the NHS has fallen by 90%. I think free movement of labour has actually helped the NHS keep going.

No it hasn't.

It's allowed right wing uk govts for 25 years to underinvest in nursing and doctors training as they can just cherry pick ready made nurses and doctors from poorer countries who in many cases paid for their training.

Bingo! -a double whammy! We get trained professionals on the cheap AND it's at the expense of poorer countries and people. There's nothing wrong with that if you live in a nice house, in a nice leafy suburb. There's a lot wrong with that if you live in a poor village in central or Eastern Europe and your doctor just left.

Remember how govts used to talk about how many doctors and nurses they would "train". Now it's all about how many they will "recruit"

But fuck it, the underclass? Who cares about them eh? "I'm a remainer. It's those pesky leavers that are racist"

 

[Metal Biker]

Yes. In one sense it is as simple as that. The UK decides its domestic policy. The UK decided it was inits domestic economic interests to be in the single market. The UK looked at the rules for participation and accepted those rules. The UK pretty much invented the EU single market so it's not as if we were blindsided by the damn thing. Equally if in the future we agreed an FTA with any other nation we would accept trade offs/rules on the basis that the benefits outweighed any downside.

A year ago as a sovereign nation we decided to be no longer be part of the EU. That was our decision. The UK alone decides it's domestic agenda. Be that inside or outside the EU. The decision to accept EU rules is ours to take and it is not forced upon us. The UK actually formulated a lot of these EU rules. The EU is shaped by its member states. It's why any deal we strike with the EU has to be agreed by every member state and can be struck down by any member state.

Your initial post that austerity was forced upon the UK by the EU was the dumbest thing I have read on this forum and by Christ I have read some moronic shite on here.

Yes, it's your own posts, i'd imagine. Who used the word 'forced'? Wasn't me. I said the EU insisted that austerity measures (under the Maastricht Criteria) needed to be taken in order to combat the fallout from the 2008 financial crisis. If not, then what was Greece so upset about with their 'austerity marches'? And Portugal? And Spain? And Ireland? Here, for your viewing pleasure. https://www.europeaninstitute.org/i...cial-reform/1180-austerity-measures-in-the-eu

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/02/11/gree-f11.html (Note the term 'demand')

Of course the EU is not seen to be the one 'imposing' austerity; they sit back and allow the national governments of each member state take the blame.

Yes, we decided it was in our interests to be in the Single Market. Tell me when we decided it was in our interests to be a member of the political union of the EU? As far as I recall we had no referendum on the Maastricht Treaty, Major just signed it without first giving us, the voting public, a referendum on it. We had opt outs, other EU nations are not so fortunate. "We have free trade access" yet we pay a membership fee of on average £10bn a year so it's not free in reality.

All you have is your opinion, and since I don't know you personally I cannot tell what you consider dumb or smart. Are your opinions ones i'm meant to hold in regard? I don't know yet, so your final point is moot in regards to a persuasive viewpoint, neither does it help the tone of the conversation when you start labelling others opinions as dumb or stupid. Makes you look like a bit of a self-opinionated arse, really.