Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[BobKowalski]

No. the point was if the eu had existed in 1945 it would have forbidden The uk govt from setting up the NHS as the country was , by the eu rules, in too much debt. Ditto for the social houses we built.

There is a reason every big business virtually, and every bank and financial institution is vehemently in favour of remain. And it isn't because they care about people who have little.

I think you are getting mixed up between the Euro/Eurozone and the EU.

What we do with health care or housing is our concern and ours alone.

 

[Metal Biker]

Noises off, who cares. Remain lost the referendum last summer, now leavers are in the process of losing their victory and you're waving crap like this around.

You know this isn't going the way you thought it would, you've lost the initiative. It's not flowing the remainer way either, but we're bystanders in all this, but here you are still taking pot shots at me while your house is being ransacked! All a bit peculiar....Enjoy.

Now that is some avoiding on a grand scale! Wowsers!

And how is it not going the way I thought it would? Please indulge me.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Can you remember when control became the dominant adjective rather than reduction?

David Davis has already indicated there may well be no reduction in immigrant numbers. So no reduction in immigrant numbers and we'll be poorer...Rule Britannia, I can't wait.

as long as we have full control I'm fine with that. most people in the country seem to want that swell

 

[Metal Biker]

No it hasn't.

It's allowed right wing uk govts for 25 years to underinvest in nursing and doctors training as they can just cherry pick ready made nurses and doctors from poorer countries who in many cases paid for their training.

Bingo! -a double whammy! We get trained professionals on the cheap AND it's at the expense of poorer countries and people. There's nothing wrong with that if you live in a nice house, in a nice leafy suburb. There's a lot wrong with that if you live in a poor village in central or Eastern Europe and your doctor just left.

Remember how govts used to talk about how many doctors and nurses they would "train". Now it's all about how many they will "recruit"

But fuck it, the underclass? Who cares about them eh? "I'm a remainer. It's those pesky leavers that are racist"

(NB: the following post is dripping with sarcasm) :)
But if we get rid of the concept of 'countries' and instead everyone becomes one glorious whole of "European", then we don't have to worry about there being 'poor countries' in the EU because there are no 'countries'!! And the peasents have freedom of movement; if their area of Europe is poor and has no jobs, they can just move to another part of it. Sure they have no money or prospect but that's not the EU's problem, they should have worked harder! Who cares about national identities, cultures and the celebration of European diversity! Let's abolish it to remain workers, er I mean citizens, of the glorious, singlular mentality that is the EU.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Now that is some avoiding on a grand scale! Wowsers!

And how is it not going the way I thought it would? Please indulge me.

We'll be offered an off the shelf option, Norway? Turkey? And we'll take one of them and you will have let your victory slip away.

 

[The perfect fumble]

as long as we have full control I'm fine with that. most people in the country seem to want that swell

Really? I think you'll find they want numbers down, but either way whatever they want, they want it at no cost and that's no going to happen.

 

[JWBlueman]

(NB: the following post is dripping with sarcasm) :)
But if we get rid of the concept of 'countries' and instead everyone becomes one glorious whole of "European", then we don't have to worry about there being 'poor countries' in the EU because there are no 'countries'!! And the peasents have freedom of movement; if their area of Europe is poor and has no jobs, they can just move to another part of it. Sure they have no money or prospect but that's not the EU's problem, they should have worked harder! Who cares about national identities, cultures and the celebration of European diversity! Let's abolish it to remain workers, er I mean citizens, of the glorious, singlular mentality that is the EU.

Agreed.

You thick northern racist ill educated knuckle dragger. I bet you live in a crappy northern town don't you. You fucking pleb.

 

[Saddleworth2]

No it hasn't.

It's allowed right wing uk govts for 25 years to underinvest in nursing and doctors training as they can just cherry pick ready made nurses and doctors from poorer countries who in many cases paid for their training.

Bingo! -a double whammy! We get trained professionals on the cheap AND it's at the expense of poorer countries and people. There's nothing wrong with that if you live in a nice house, in a nice leafy suburb. There's a lot wrong with that if you live in a poor village in central or Eastern Europe and your doctor just left.

Remember how govts used to talk about how many doctors and nurses they would "train". Now it's all about how many they will "recruit"

But fuck it, the underclass? Who cares about them eh? "I'm a remainer. It's those pesky leavers that are racist"

Many voted remain because they understood the consequences of leaving, short, medium and long term. Now whilst it can be argued that Mays incompetent handling of Brexit is exacerbating the situation, it is a consequence of the leave vote.

Source: the Guardian
The number of EU nationals registering as nurses in England has dropped by 92% since the Brexit referendum in June, and a record number are quitting the NHS, it can be revealed.
The shock figures have prompted warnings that Theresa May’s failure to offer assurances to foreigners living in the UK is exacerbating a staffing crisis in the health service.

Only 96 nurses joined the NHS from other European nations in December 2016 – a drop from 1,304 in July, the month after the referendum.

At the same time, freedom of information responses compiled by the Liberal Democrats from 80 of the 136 NHS acute trusts in England show that 2,700 EU nurses left the health service in 2016, compared to 1,600 EU nurses in 2014 – a 68% increase.

The haemorrhaging of foreign staff is being blamed by the Royal College of Nursing (RCN) on the failure of the government to provide EU nationals in the UK with any security about their future. May has claimed that Britain cannot act unilaterally to guarantee residency as it would weaken her hand in the coming article 50 negotiations over Brexit

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Really? I think you'll find they want numbers down, but either way whatever they want, they want it at no cost and that's no going to happen.

maybe so, but having control is the first step to that. it might come at a cost, but thats what people want. I dont think you can just carry on ignoring it.

 

[BobKowalski]

Yes, it's your own posts, i'd imagine. Who used the word 'forced'? Wasn't me. I said the EU insisted that austerity measures (under the Maastricht Criteria) needed to be taken in order to combat the fallout from the 2008 financial crisis. If not, then what was Greece so upset about with their 'austerity marches'? And Portugal? And Spain? And Ireland? Here, for your viewing pleasure. https://www.europeaninstitute.org/i...cial-reform/1180-austerity-measures-in-the-eu

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/02/11/gree-f11.html (Note the term 'demand')

Of course the EU is not seen to be the one 'imposing' austerity; they sit back and allow the national governments of each member state take the blame.

Yes, we decided it was in our interests to be in the Single Market. Tell me when we decided it was in our interests to be a member of the political union of the EU? As far as I recall we had no referendum on the Maastricht Treaty, Major just signed it without first giving us, the voting public, a referendum on it. We had opt outs, other EU nations are not so fortunate. "We have free trade access" yet we pay a membership fee of on average £10bn a year so it's not free in reality.

All you have is your opinion, and since I don't know you personally I cannot tell what you consider dumb or smart. Are your opinions ones i'm meant to hold in regard? I don't know yet, so your final point is moot in regards to a persuasive viewpoint, neither does it help the tone of the conversation when you start labelling others opinions as dumb or stupid. Makes you look like a bit of a self-opinionated arse, really.

Because the countries you cite, and this is just a wild stab in the fucking dark, are in the Eurozone?

The UK is not in the Eurozone.

The end.

Oh OK I'll play along. By joining the Eurozone you are committing to a common monetary policy. Just as Scotland and Wales are committed to the common monetary policy of the UK. If the EU countries do not like it then they are free to leave. Some have suggested Greece and Italy should do precisely that. Others think there will be long term benefits to remaining. It is however the decision of the sovereign countries in question.

The EU is distinct from the Eurozone. We are in the former and not the latter. We decide our monetary policy. We are not bound by the decisions of the ECB anymore than we are bound by the US Fed.

We decided to be a member of the political union when John Major decided to sign the Maastricht Treaty. Irrespective of whether you agree with the decision Major was the elected PM of a sovereign UK and the decision was ratified by the UK sovereign Parliament in accordance with our rules and constitution. That you did not like it personally is not a valid yardstick of that decisions constitutional legality.

 

[Metal Biker]

We'll be offered an off the shelf option, Norway? Turkey? And we'll take one of them and you will have let your victory slip away.

We leave the EU, we renegotiate terms of trade under EEA or EFTA rules or WTO. I'm now leaning towards WTO personally and then making a new arrangement later down the line.

Note Norway has no say over the terms of EU negotiations regarding trade... but neither does it have to accept the new terms, since they aren't a member of the EU. We were.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-norway/
There's the Swiss model, a Canadian model similar to CETA. You see, new arrangements can be made and we should be looking at the options of creating new arrangements rather than just settling with the the existing ones as the only conceivable course of action.

 

[Saddleworth2]

(NB: the following post is dripping with sarcasm) :)
But if we get rid of the concept of 'countries' and instead everyone becomes one glorious whole of "European", then we don't have to worry about there being 'poor countries' in the EU because there are no 'countries'!! And the peasents have freedom of movement; if their area of Europe is poor and has no jobs, they can just move to another part of it. Sure they have no money or prospect but that's not the EU's problem, they should have worked harder! Who cares about national identities, cultures and the celebration of European diversity! Let's abolish it to remain workers, er I mean citizens, of the glorious, singlular mentality that is the EU.

The EU countries that supply the majority of working adults to the UK are Poland and Ireland. Neither are third world countries last time I checked. You do know you can check these facts quite easily don't you? EU citizens make up between 5 and 7% of the UK workforce.

 

[The perfect fumble]

maybe so, but having control is the first step to that. it might come at a cost, but thats what people want. I dont think you can just carry on ignoring it.

The polls say otherwise. The referendum is over, but the leave campaign never talked about the financial cost, never mind the divorce bill, whatever one thinks of the £350 million to the NHS slogan the whole thrust of the leave campaign was the savings we were going to make, the additional funds we'd have, what few economic projections leave did produce assumed unfettered access to the single market, plus all the cheaper goodies from the fabulous trade deals we were going to pull off. All lies of course but hey ho! That's politics.

What is truly perplexing is that leavers, even now, seem to be avoiding taking ownership of this, with all it's ramifications and because they refuse to do this they might well end up with all the pain but none of the gain.

 

[JWBlueman]

Many voted remain because they understood the consequences of leaving, short, medium and long term. Now whilst it can be argued that Mays incompetent handling of Brexit is exacerbating the situation, it is a consequence of the leave vote.

Source: the Guardian
The number of EU nationals registering as nurses in England has dropped by 92% since the Brexit referendum in June, and a record number are quitting the NHS, it can be revealed.
The shock figures have prompted warnings that Theresa May’s failure to offer assurances to foreigners living in the UK is exacerbating a staffing crisis in the health service.

Only 96 nurses joined the NHS from other European nations in December 2016 – a drop from 1,304 in July, the month after the referendum.

At the same time, freedom of information responses compiled by the Liberal Democrats from 80 of the 136 NHS acute trusts in England show that 2,700 EU nurses left the health service in 2016, compared to 1,600 EU nurses in 2014 – a 68% increase.

The haemorrhaging of foreign staff is being blamed by the Royal College of Nursing (RCN) on the failure of the government to provide EU nationals in the UK with any security about their future. May has claimed that Britain cannot act unilaterally to guarantee residency as it would weaken her hand in the coming article 50 negotiations over Brexit

The answer, if there is a problem recruiting nurses, isn't to remain in the EU.

It's to train more nurses. Like we used to.

There's is a reason this has become exponentially harder for young working class uk citizens to do.

It used to be the case that you could leave school with few o levels, join the NHS as a trainee nurse (being paid for it as well by the way, as well as housing provided if required), and study for 2 (SEN) or 3 (SRN) years before then being a qualified nurse. You could then go onto train in midwifery or other specialities, and be paid for it.

Now you have to go to university, study for 3 years, rack up £1000's in debt (to the banks of course) before you can then become a nurse, where, although technically qualified, you will have gained significantly less practical experience of the job.

So now it's is a far far less popular career choice for uk citizens (so we instead cherry pick from poorer countries who have trained the nurses for us). There is a reason they do it this way. It's cheaper for the uk, it makes the banks money hand over fist, and it means we can scare people into remaining in the EU ("the NHS will collapse you heartless scoundrel" etc)

If you care about the NHS , support leave.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

Because the countries you cite, and this is just a wild stab in the fucking dark, are in the Eurozone?

We decided to be a member of the political union when John Major decided to sign the Maastricht Treaty. Irrespective of whether you agree with the decision Major was the elected PM of a sovereign UK and the decision was ratified by the UK sovereign Parliament in accordance with our rules and constitution. That you did not like it personally is not a valid yardstick of that decisions constitutional legality.

And now we are coming out of that political union mate, achieved through a referendum and enacted upon by an elected government of today.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I'm now leaning towards WTO.

LOL....Of course you are.

I'm leaning towards joining the United Federation of Planets.

 

[Metal Biker]

Agreed.

You thick northern racist ill educated knuckle dragger. I bet you live in a crappy northern town don't you. You fucking pleb.

How very dare you! Levenshulme is lovely... most of the time.

 

[Saddleworth2]

The answer, if there is a problem recruiting nurses, isn't to remain in the EU.

It's to train more nurses. Like we used to.

There's is a reason this has become exponentially harder for young working class uk citizens to do.

It used to be the case that you could leave school with few o levels, join the NHS as a trainee nurse (being paid for it as well by the way, as well as housing provided if required), and study for 2 (SEN) or 3 (SRN) years before then being a qualified nurse. You could then go onto train in midwifery or other specialities, and be paid for it.

Now you have to go to university, study for 3 years, rack up £1000's in debt (to the banks of course) before you can then become a nurse, where, although technically qualified, you will have gained significantly less practical experience of the job.

So now it's is a far far less popular career choice for uk citizens (so we instead cherry pick from poorer countries who have trained the nurses for us). There is a reason they do it this way. It's cheaper for the uk, it makes the banks money hand over fist, and it means we can scare people into remaining in the EU ("the NHS will collapse you heartless scoundrel" etc)

If you care about the NHS , support leave.

my daughter has recently qualified as a nurse so i am well aware of how they are recruited and incidentally the contribution made by EU doctors and nurses in the various places she has worked. I do care passionately about the NHS but happen to believe improving it is in our own hands and not dependent on us leaving the EU.

 

[Metal Biker]

Because the countries you cite, and this is just a wild stab in the fucking dark, are in the Eurozone?

The UK is not in the Eurozone.

The end.

Oh OK I'll play along. By joining the Eurozone you are committing to a common monetary policy. Just as Scotland and Wales are committed to the common monetary policy of the UK. If the EU countries do not like it then they are free to leave. Some have suggested Greece and Italy should do precisely that. Others think there will be long term benefits to remaining. It is however the decision of the sovereign countries in question.

The EU is distinct from the Eurozone. We are in the former and not the latter. We decide our monetary policy. We are not bound by the decisions of the ECB anymore than we are bound by the US Fed.

We decided to be a member of the political union when John Major decided to sign the Maastricht Treaty. Irrespective of whether you agree with the decision Major was the elected PM of a sovereign UK and the decision was ratified by the UK sovereign Parliament in accordance with our rules and constitution. That you did not like it personally is not a valid yardstick of that decisions constitutional legality.

Hang on, you said the EU does not impose austerity, but now you're saying it imposed them ONLY on Eurozone members...so you've proved my point. The EU does and can impose austerity on member states within the Eurozone.

My viewpoint did not focus on austerity being imposed on US by the EU. I'm discussing the EU as a political organisation, not our own personal relationship with it. I look at how the EU treats it's OTHER member states, not just ourselves and my vote was in reflection of that. It wasn't solely a selfish UK one. The other points about Common Fisheries Policy, membership fee, etc, THEY are imposed, but I never stated austerity measures were; only that they were on other EU members, something you denied was true but have now agreed upon.

We did not decide, the elected Government made a decision on our behalf without then offering the public a referendum on the decision to do so as they did in 1975. I do hope then, that you aren't like other remainers who claim that "the referendum called upon by the elected PM who stated in his Governments manifesto that a vote for the Conservatives meant a vote on a referendum about membership of the EU", which won the election, was 'wrong' or should never have been called, because your own statements allude to that fact (as do mine) that the referendum should have been called, and that you inform other remainers on this forum of this fact.

 

[Metal Biker]

LOL....Of course you are.

I'm leaning towards joining the United Federation of Planets.

Oooh, I hate to tell you this but the United Federation of Planets doesn't actually exist.

However the World Trade Organisation, and all the rules, regulations and directives contained within, DOES exist, is a possible course of action and is a viable option.