Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

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I hope that's a clarkie because I've dedicated significant time over a number of years studying the history of these isles so know the intricacies of it very well and to a much higher degree than most of the population........

In reference to calibre of knowledge and awareness of this Brexiter, perhaps if most here shared similar, people wouldn't be so quick to ruin our history and culture going forward in their misunderstanding of who we are and how long it took to reach the natural conclusion of territories into a united island as one entity of power (and uniform culture again) after foreign invaders seizing power as the elite.

Pretentious, moi? I'll regret this but....

1. How can you ruin history? (Except by realising it's bunk.)

2. "Natural conclusion"? Seriously? Ireland as part of the "United Kingdom" wasn't part of a natural conclusion but splitting Ulster was?

3. "Uniform culture"? Not a bad translation of "Ein Volk".

4. Foreign invaders seizing power as the elite? The Normans?

On a scale of 1 to 5 how much would you agree that diversity is tearing the British people apart?
 
Anyway we spent months working on member states, to divide them and get support for our parallel approach and make progress without triggering the Article 50 countdown clock. We don't get very far so we trigger Article 50 and the clock starts ticking. And then what do we do? Waste 2 months by calling a GE. Not before we trigger the countdown but after. Seriously what the fuck was that all about? Not content with wasting valuable time we then end up with a weakened Govt. Fanfuckingtastic.
It's fucking nuts.
 
Pretentious, moi? I'll regret this but....

1. How can you ruin history? (Except by realising it's bunk.)

2. "Natural conclusion"? Seriously? Ireland as part of the "United Kingdom" wasn't part of a natural conclusion but splitting Ulster was?

3. "Uniform culture"? Not a bad translation of "Ein Volk".

4. Foreign invaders seizing power as the elite? The Normans?

On a scale of 1 to 5 how much would you agree that diversity is tearing the British people apart?
5
 
Pretentious, moi? I'll regret this but....

1. How can you ruin history? (Except by realising it's bunk.)

2. "Natural conclusion"? Seriously? Ireland as part of the "United Kingdom" wasn't part of a natural conclusion but splitting Ulster was?

3. "Uniform culture"? Not a bad translation of "Ein Volk".

4. Foreign invaders seizing power as the elite? The Normans?

On a scale of 1 to 5 how much would you agree that diversity is tearing the British people apart?
Yes I thought it might sound like that but it was me taking offence at the poster trying to demean the knowledge of Brexit voters on the basis of my comment which is founded in facts and of which, they ironically have shown extremely poor understanding of despite it being very simple to grasp.

1. I mean ruin the logical progression of it including everything people in the past fought and suffered for, by people forgetting who they are because people have sought to twist perceptions because of their own motives and/or misunderstandings. This began and has been continued since from when historical understanding was very poor by today's standards.

2. I only said that in reference to the island of Britain. Ireland has it's own set of considerations - both sides of which are valid and I respect. With regards to Britain, even with tribes dominating different regions, we had a High King of Britain. Once the island was made up of kingdoms, all of them sought to dominate the island as was the natural territorial progression to form a single country.

3. All Britain and Ireland shared a uniform culture and recognition that they were the same peoples in the pre-Roman Britain period. Foreign invasions disrupted that to the point that these people were separated and "forgot" over time that they were the same - such as the Britons and Picts - same people except Picts were outside of the influence of Rome, over about a 400 year period, they same themselves as different - with hindsight, we know they were only different in cultural evolution. The Nazis discussed things such as culture with a racial "superiority" mindset and like I said before, historical understanding (as well as all matter of other subjects) at that point was still poor by today's standards - the Nazis misinterpreted quite a bit. So no, there's no comparison there.

4. Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans, William of Orange.

5. This has derailed from the matter of what the UK is still relevant to the thread so: 5 being highest - 2. I only say 2 because it has been badly mis-managed by the government with no foresight (I have the benefit of hindsight so am not criticising so much as commenting) and it has caused tears in society. This has most fiercely been propagated by ideologies within Islam and consequent terrorism. Other than those factors (you might include wage undercutting) I'd say lowest, 1. Multiculturalism has produced some of the most beautiful benefits in the history of mankind that otherwise wouldn't exist. Without it, cultures could become "stale" and not evolve into better versions. Think of all the music genres (blues, grime, types of jazz, hip-hop etc. etc. etc. etc.), artwork, language, literature, food (e.g. tikka masala) - the list is endless, including all the things you can learn from other cultures. The world would be a much less interesting place without it and certainly struggling with many more wars borne out of tribalistic instincts. I however, believe balanced multi-culturalism is sensible, to have measures in place to manage it suitably (statistically, regionally across the country) so as to ensure British culture is always dominant enough. If British culture becomes a minority, we'll end up losing it and become another USA (they are only dominated by white peoples today because those peoples oppressed others for so long) who started as a nation of immigrants and who I feel have a responsibility to uphold this notion after the loss of native american peoples on such a scale, and is feasible due to the size of their territories. If British culture is lost, like native American culture (bar very small communities), it will only exist as people "remembering" it rather than having a platform as a nation to evolve, which we should encourage all nations to retain their right to otherwise they will be lost and people won't be able to experience the real thing and benefit from it. There is also the significant consideration that we are a small island with an ever increasing population and at some point tensions will come to a boiling point because of it.

Compare what it might be if the world was under one government and there were no borders, no nations. Everyone would share the same culture and expression would heavily stagnate because sources of influence are all practically the same and are all evolving from the same base culture. The world would be a very boring place culturally compared to today.
 
Go on list all your sources then.
I can tell you want to.
Then I'll list mine.
On the unified culture before invasion and the extent of "Romanisation" (culture) - Peter Salway's A History of Roman Britain (Book) / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricola_(book) - Roman senator & historian / http://www.livius.org/sources/about/caesar-s-gallic-war/ - These texts written by Julius Caesar himself in third person

On a look at the starting point of the peoples of Britain and Ireland (same peoples) from when we became islands up until the dark age period and some modern considerations - Neil Oliver's A History of Ancient Britain (Book).

On what "celtic" means and the revivalism of the culture in the home nations and the motives for it (told by historical finds; this was an exhibition in London and Edinburgh) - http://www.britishmuseumshoponline....-exhibition-catalogue-paperback/invt/cmc28368

Those are a starting point. For less academic summaries, here are some wikis of things I mentioned and wider context you can find sources for:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheged
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Strathclyde
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Northumbria (Note Angles up to Firth of Forth, this gave rise to Scots language still spoken today)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dál_Riata (Gaels, aka Irish that invaded Britain; the SNP base their whole perception of Scottish identity as stemming from this people)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts (The people the Scoti - Dal Raita - invaded)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Scotland#Origins:_400.E2.80.93943 (How Scotland formed as an entity)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Triads
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloegyr
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw (See the region labelled Cumbria on the lower map)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_British_Isles (On genetics; I can also explain through historical events why certain links are likely reflected in the population between other countries)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Crowns
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_Kingdom#Birth_of_the_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707

By the two Acts, the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland—which at the time were separate states with separate legislatures, but with the same monarch—were, in the words of the Treaty, "United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain".[2]

"United INTO one kingdom." You need it any clearer?

After years of study you'll realise that across Britain, we've had the same migrations of peoples over history - we started the same, and we've ended up the same concoction across the home nations. In relation to White British people, studies tend to agree native DNA is significantly dominant, even dominant in the South East (closest to the continent).

On review of you're first reply, is my calibre of knowledge and understanding of my country enough for you now or are ya gonna stick to your guns whereby Brexit voters are a bunch of thickos that don't know what's what? Only scratched small areas of the surface.
 
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The issue in contention was the idea that the UK would get eastern European nations to take a different line to other EU countries so an EU politician suggested that this "divide and rule" idea could be used to exploit divisions between component parts of the UK.

You started a semantic argument about what "union" means that frankly did sound a bit thick, or at least odd. You've proved you're not thick but it's still odd, not least whatever you mean by "uniform culture" (from Cornwall to Caithness when most people would not know what happened the other side of the hill) - which sounds like whatever happened, invasions, migration, war, French Dutch or German monarchs, we have a "uniform culture". It's cobblers, however you define it.
 
Now that the negotiations have become a two stage process, how will that affect parliamentary approval of "the deal" ? Effectively there will now be two deals, a divorce deal and a trade deal. If the divorce deal is "agreed" by the negotiators later this year, will that be put to parliament for approval before moving on to the trade deal? Would there be any point in moving on to the trade deal if a clear majority in parliament have already indicated they will not approve the divorce deal?

If say 20 Tory MPs oppose the divorce deal on the grounds that its too expensive and they would prefer "no deal", could they force a vote? How would the opposition parties likely vote in those circumstances?
 
so you want a bad deal ?. I have suggested and others have that some remainers want the economy to fail and want the worst possible deal to say ' i told you so' and that we stay in the eu. why would you want a bad deal, where we could end up completely outside the eu in a terrible position.

This is somethign that's repeated a lot.

I do think there are some who want the thing to be a fiasco in order to point and laugh at the Leave side.
However, I do not think they want that to happen at the expense of the UK going down the pan - assuming that there is no change of heart over Brexit happening, it strikes me as purely a philosophical idea.
 
tbf the government were trying to get citizens rights sorted out last summer and the eu wouldn't agree to anything then, so we did want to get it sorted out pretty quickly. surely if we are talking about the irish border then trade will be discussed, especially concerning ireland and northern ireland ?. i think its hard to judge tbh we could be in a good position in a years time. who knows, its hard to predict right now.

It wasn't that the EU "wouldn't agree" last summer.
It was that there was nothing to agree to until A50 was activated.
 
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