Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[Ancient Citizen]

Whilst I agree with all your other posts, I think that "Remain" would win comfortably now in a straight referendum. The dialogue is changing now, you can even see it on this thread. The politicians, business leaders and economic experts are all scared and confused and that message is seeping out to the general public and even to the white van men who swung the referendum. In another 6-12 months I think that the realisation will be setting in as to what a disaster this is going to be for every person in Britain (apart from the super-rich) should it be followed through.

I still see occasional (much less than before) brainless "Well the sky didn't fall in/scaremongering" opinions, but this has cost us 3 Prime Ministers and dozens of reputations and careers, and the country is in political turmoil. And this is only the start.

I totally agree that in future generations this will be seen as a national disaster. I still believe it's one that can and will be averted and the whispers to that effect are slowly increasing in volume. Wait until the negotiations get really tough, and the EU keep leaking info about what a mess we are in, and I predict a proper sea-change in public opinion.

I've not spoken to anyone, Labour or Tory, who's changed their mind about anything, and I disagree that another referendum would
change the original result. Nothing that has been said or done since article 50 has been triggered has affected anything of substance as yet,
everything said about 'Disaster' and averting a democratic decision has been said by remain voters ad nauseum and all we're seeing
now is the same tedious dross, which has bored most of us silly since the result was aired. The country has virtual full employment,
inward investment is still creating jobs, and no wars,no immediate 500,000 job losses, no large corporations decamping and London remains
the financial centre, and it looks like it will stay that way.
Remainers remain enthralled by whatever some Eurocrat utters and offer up craven acceptance that they are right and
we were/are wrong, this just reinforces the strength of feeling amongst the majority who voted out, to get out.

Sorry about the layout, fuck knows why this happens!

 

[denislawsbackheel]

I don't hold out much hope of any change of opinion if the brexshiteer knuckledraggers in last night's Question Time audience are anything to go by.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

I've not spoken to anyone, Labour or Tory, who's changed their mind about anything, and I disagree that another referendum would
change the original result. Nothing that has been said or done since article 50 has been triggered has affected anything of substance as yet,
everything said about 'Disaster' and averting a democratic decision has been said by remain voters ad nauseum and all we're seeing
now is the same tedious dross, which has bored most of us silly since the result was aired. The country has virtual full employment,
inward investment is still creating jobs, and no wars,no immediate 500,000 job losses, no large corporations decamping and London remains
the financial centre, and it looks like it will stay that way.
Remainers remain enthralled by whatever some Eurocrat utters and offer up craven acceptance that they are right and
we were/are wrong, this just reinforces the strength of feeling amongst the majority who voted out, to get out.

Sorry about the layout, fuck knows why this happens!

Eh? This country is in deep political turmoil. The ecomony is slowing by the day. The pound has plummeted. Practically every day a new piece of bad news from a credible source hits us. And we haven't left the EU or even start negotiating properly.

Nobody predicted a war. What was predicted was exactly what is happening: chaos. It's also a chaos that nobody wants to own. We don't hear much from the upper class, self-serving pricks who duped the nation in pursuit of their own ends, do we? Where are they with their vision for this Great Britain they promised us?

Thinks are already happening. http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/news/a15969/brexit-may-not-happen-nicholas-watt/

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Eh? This country is in deep political turmoil. The ecomony is slowing by the day. The pound has plummeted. Practically every day a new piece of bad news from a credible source hits us. And we haven't left the EU or even start negotiating properly.

Nobody predicted a war. What was predicted was exactly what is happening: chaos. It's also a chaos that nobody wants to own. We don't hear much from the upper class, self-serving pricks who duped the nation in pursuit of their own ends, do we? Where are they with their vision for this Great Britain they promised us?

Thinks are already happening. http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/news/a15969/brexit-may-not-happen-nicholas-watt/

No, the government has experienced 'chaos' resulting in a humiliating deal with the DUP, a comment by some no mark
BBC reporter who 'Spoke to someone' on his views about Brexit hardly merits tremors of uncertainty.
I'll have to tell my building site working mates that they're now upper class, self serving pricks,
that'll make them keen for another referendum.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

No, the government has experienced 'chaos' resulting in a humiliating deal with the DUP, a comment by some no mark
BBC reporter who 'Spoke to someone' on his views about Brexit hardly merits tremors of uncertainty.
I'll have to tell my building site working mates that they're now upper class, self serving pricks,
that'll make them keen for another referendum.

Read it again. Your mates were duped by the upper class self-serving pricks. They were the turkeys voting for Christmas.

And if you choose not to see the uncertainty in government and business about Brexit I can't help you because that's a ludicrous claim to make.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Read it again. Your mates were duped by the upper class self-serving pricks. They were the turkeys voting for Christmas.

And if you choose not to see the uncertainty in government and business about Brexit I can't help you because that's a ludicrous claim to make.

I think that they'd say you've been gulled by the tremulous student types who think the EU is one big
handy-holding force for good that it patently isn't, but we've had all this discussion. Of course there is uncertainty,
nobody expected over 40 years being shackled to this federalist nightmare to be an easy exit, but exit it will be.
I still don't know who these upper class pricks are you refer to, is Jeremy Corbyn one?

 

[Lancet Fluke]

Whilst I agree with all your other posts, I think that "Remain" would win comfortably now in a straight referendum. The dialogue is changing now, you can even see it on this thread. The politicians, business leaders and economic experts are all scared and confused and that message is seeping out to the general public and even to the white van men who swung the referendum. In another 6-12 months I think that the realisation will be setting in as to what a disaster this is going to be for every person in Britain (apart from the super-rich) should it be followed through.

I still see occasional (much less than before) brainless "Well the sky didn't fall in/scaremongering" opinions, but this has cost us 3 Prime Ministers and dozens of reputations and careers, and the country is in political turmoil. And this is only the start.

I totally agree that in future generations this will be seen as a national disaster. I still believe it's one that can and will be averted and the whispers to that effect are slowly increasing in volume. Wait until the negotiations get really tough, and the EU keep leaking info about what a mess we are in, and I predict a proper sea-change in public opinion.

You might be right about a referendum if they held it today, I'd like to think so but I'm not convinced. The leave vote seemed to get stronger if anything after the referendum and I saw some poll stuff about a month or two ago that still seemed to suggest leave would win if they re-ran the referendum but you could see that support was drifting a little so it is possible that opinion has turned enough very recently, I suppose. Personally, I think the whole thing is madness and sadly I don't think we will not leave now even if/when public opinion does shift. There seem to be too many influential people who want Brexit at literally all and any cost to the country and it has become an impossible argument to have because regardless of any rational points you make they can (rightly?) just counter it with "carrying out the will of the people" and "upholding democracy". It has got to the very odd point where it could become incredibly clear that the whole thing is going to be a disaster, potentially a very long term and enduring disaster at that, but parliament would now still just plough on regardless because they are scared to death of looking like they are undermining democracy. I know I will get grief for suggesting that it could possibly be odd to go along with the result of a referendum though! I hope you're right and I'm wrong and that somehow there is scope for a rethink before it is too late but personally I think the most likely scenario is that we leave and at some point in the future when a couple of older generations have snuffed it and a couple of younger generations have reached voting age, we will rejoin.

 

[arbabarshad]

London remains
the financial centre, and it looks like it will stay that way!

Wishful thinking that.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

You might be right about a referendum if they held it today, I'd like to think so but I'm not convinced. The leave vote seemed to get stronger if anything after the referendum and I saw some poll stuff about a month or two ago that still seemed to suggest leave would win if they re-ran the referendum but you could see that support was drifting a little so it is possible that opinion has turned enough very recently, I suppose. Personally, I think the whole thing is madness and sadly I don't think we will not leave now even if/when public opinion does shift. There seem to be too many influential people who want Brexit at literally all and any cost to the country and it has become an impossible argument to have because regardless of any rational points you make they can (rightly?) just counter it with "carrying out the will of the people" and "upholding democracy". It has got to the very odd point where it could become incredibly clear that the whole thing is going to be a disaster, potentially a very long term and enduring disaster at that, but parliament would now still just plough on regardless because they are scared to death of looking like they are undermining democracy. I know I will get grief for suggesting that it could possibly be odd to go along with the result of a referendum though! I hope you're right and I'm wrong and that somehow there is scope for a rethink before it is too late but personally I think the most likely scenario is that we leave and at some point in the future when a couple of older generations have snuffed it and a couple of younger generations have reached voting age, we will rejoin.

I share your depression about the whole thing, and I appreciate I am in a minority in clinging onto some hope. I think we have already reached the point you mention, or the beginning of it, where is has become clear already that this will be disaster.

I still envisage a situation where there is a referendum on the "deal", maybe even under a Labour government, so the "will of the people" and democracy is being upheld. But your scenario - an ultra-soft Brexit is probably the most likely.

Not that I look to Noel Gallagher for political comment or advice, but his comment that "We pay politicians to make these decisions. The man on the street is a fucking moron" sums the whole thing up. I have no respect for anyone who voted Leave, I'm afraid. I hold them in contempt.

 

[cibaman]

I've not spoken to anyone, Labour or Tory, who's changed their mind about anything, and I disagree that another referendum would
change the original result. Nothing that has been said or done since article 50 has been triggered has affected anything of substance as yet,
everything said about 'Disaster' and averting a democratic decision has been said by remain voters ad nauseum and all we're seeing
now is the same tedious dross, which has bored most of us silly since the result was aired. The country has virtual full employment,
inward investment is still creating jobs, and no wars,no immediate 500,000 job losses, no large corporations decamping and London remains
the financial centre, and it looks like it will stay that way.
Remainers remain enthralled by whatever some Eurocrat utters and offer up craven acceptance that they are right and
we were/are wrong, this just reinforces the strength of feeling amongst the majority who voted out, to get out.

Sorry about the layout, fuck knows why this happens!

Its the ones that aren't talking about it that would make the difference if there were a 2nd referendum. The ones that talk about it, the committed remainers and leavers, are unlikely to have changed their mind. Its the ones that really aren't intrerested in that much, but who pick up the vibes as to whether its going well or badly, that would shift the vote. If a 2nd referendum were to be held now I think it would still be a Leave vote, but I think that will probably change in 12 months time.