Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

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mcfc1632 said:
This is the dichotomy that the 'socialists' have consistently failed to address / explain.

If they were really 'true to their beliefs' then they should be the first in the queue to campaign to ensure that Brexit (now the decision has been taken to Leave) actually happens.

Patently a socialist model can never be realised within the EU - so the best chance they have to achieve their dream is to leave the EU and then get a socialist government elected. This opportunity to break free of the EU will not come again.

I think that some are simply faux socialists and others do not understand the theory of such a model but think that it is 'hip' to claim to be socialists.

Yet others it seems are simply contrary by nature. As someone has already said, this is a football forum not a think tank and therefore it should not be a surprise that the quality of their analysis is limited and tribal.
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I'm not a Socialist (although it is not an absolute term) but I guess I am a Social Democrat(ish). Globalisation has more positives than negatives. I support a strong a welfare system to counter some of the negatives. State aid to industry is not incompatible with EU rules given for example the train networks in a lot of EU countries are state owned. Technically some of our train companies are state owned. Just not by the UK state. Hell Macron nationalised a shipyard a few months back just to stop an Italian company from taking it over. Shame we don't try some of that shit. Except wait we did. We nationalised some banks after the financial crisis.

I support the concept of the EU if not always it's execution. I support the single market which is far from being a Socialist idea given it was that well known loony leftie Margret fucking Thatcher who pushed for it and her Govt that largely helped created it. I also support free movement and have no idea why I should celebrate the fact that my right to free movement across 27 countries is being removed because yes the removal of citizen rights is always cause for celebration is it not?

I also think that Brexit will prove to be a benefit to the EU as nothing shapes and revitalises an institution more than an existential crisis so I am pleased for that. Trump has also helped. The benefits of watching a stupid idea unfold and a stupid arsehole in action cannot be underestimated.

And yes I did say this is a football forum and not a Think Tank but then have you seen some of the gibbering nonsense that sometimes comes out of Think Tanks?

And talking of gibberish I note that David Davis has abandoned his computer tracked customs idea after a whole two weeks. Well done. Our crack negotiating team strikes again. And Davis is the brains of the fucking outfit. Christ on a fucking bike.

Look if you want a Brexit that works and doesn't hurt there is only one solution. Pay the EU to sort it out for us. £50 billion is being bandied about so here's what we do. Give it to them. We are going to give them a shed load of dosh at some point anyway so just do it with the proviso that they sort it out with minimal pain for everyone. We can still turn up to the negotiations every few months or so and make it look good. Trust me know one will notice and in three years they can hand us a workable plan and run it for us for around say £8 billion a year so that it looks like we got a bit of a saving.

Trust me. It will be a steal. It will be the deal of the fucking century.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
So what exactly are you trying to achieve yourself? Are you trying to "convince" those that voted to acknowledge the horrendous mistake you believe that they have made? To what extent and purpose? Is it so that you can go satisfy your own sense of virtue announcing to all and sundry that you were "on the right side of history".

Here is is a wake up call to your inflated egos in regards to the topic on conversation this thread is meant to encourage; nobody cares about how you voted but you. Look back on your own post; read it again and ask yourself "How has this post informed people who want to know about the Brexit negotiations with new information that could be deemed useful?" It's nothing more than your own opinion and we know that already, there's absolutely no need to post it again. This is the point I was making.

This "Article 50/Brexit" thread is anything but a place to discuss the negotiations from a neutral perspective. It's a refuge for people to moan, denigrate and lambast the decision, which is fine, anyone should be allowed to do that, but at the very least start another thread on it rather than polluting the current discussion with insults about others whose opinions you disagree with. Somebody posts a link about the negotiations that you feel is overly positive and not accurately reflective of the tone of the piece then by all means, if you feel it is necessary argue against it, but argue against the point not the person, which is all that's happened these past 400 pages.

Quick example: someone posts about Brexit from a news source about how the UK and EU are at a disagreement about a certain aspect of the negotiations. Their conclusion isn't that this is important for both sides to reach an understanding or that maybe one side or the other needs to be more flexible insert examples here, no it's that BREXIT IS THE WORST DISASTER TO EVER BEFALL THIS NATION IN IT'S HISTORY, AND THIS IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF HOW IT'S DOOMED TO FAILURE! I'D RATHER FACE THE NAZIS AGAIN!!!!!

Not entirely helpful or realistic. Look at your own rhetoric; "We're a ship sailing towards the edge of the world" in your critique of a metaphor used by those in favour of leaving the EU. That's a bit radical isn't it. We've elected to kill ourselves, is that basically what you're saying here? If this topic is causing you so much anger and stress because of your displeasure at how the talks are progressing ("Don't you mean REGRESSING!" Haha, got in before you!) then why put yourself through so much misery...or is this thread somewhere for you to vent? If that is the case, fine be honest that your contributions add nothing to the discussion and nobody should take what you say seriously, i'm just letting you know that as someone who does come on this thread and who respects the input of Len Rum, SWP's Back, Damo et al who clearly have a better understanding of the terminology being used when these announcements are made than I, that contributions like yours and others that focuses solely on insults of opinions are not entirely useful.
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Insults? What insults? You've just insulted me.

You said no one posted on this thread anything of substance - surely that's an insult to everyone who has contributed including yourself and makes reading your post pointless.

Anyway, yes I post in the hope that in the second referendum I might have persuaded some to vote Remain who previously voted Leave. That may mean not the usual Leavers who cannot be deflected by incompetence or disaster but those who do not post but may yet admit that Brexit is shite.
 
BobKowalski said:
And talking of gibberish I note that David Davis has abandoned his computer tracked customs idea after a whole two weeks. Well done. Our crack negotiating team strikes again. And Davis is the brains of the fucking outfit. Christ on a fucking bike.
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supposedly looking for a tilt at the top job too ha ha ha - him or Boris - Jesus is this what UK politics on the right have become????
 
Vic said:
Insults? What insults? You've just insulted me.

You said no one posted on this thread anything of substance - surely that's an insult to everyone who has contributed including yourself and makes reading your post pointless.

Anyway, yes I post in the hope that in the second referendum I might have persuaded some to vote Remain who previously voted Leave. That may mean not the usual Leavers who cannot be deflected by incompetence or disaster but those who do not post but may yet admit that Brexit is shite.
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It's not an insult it's an observation of mine about the thread.

Offence is taken not given. If YOU feel that my observation on how this thread has 'devovled' into petty insults and ad hominem attacks references you personally then i'm afraid that's your issue. I'm talking about how the thread has become what it has, not that it's always been that way; you're interpreting the post incorrectly, again another example of what has happened to the thread.

Do I think you're a positive contributor? No, I don't. Sorry. (Positive here having the meaning of providing beneficial information that gives an accurate representation of the proceedings, and not 'pro-Brexit'. It's a shame we all have to clarify everything now because people like to interpret things differently to suit their outrage.) Do I feel I do? No, as I stated I welcome the contributions of those who genuinely try and make sense of the verbal diarrhea that comes out, to explain in laymen's terms what's going on because I myself am not privy to the inner workings of the EU, the gargantuan task of negotating our separation to a successful and satisfactory conclusion. Personally I don't care if the EU becomes worse off as a result, but that's just my view.

If your admitted purpose, or at least one of, is to 'persuade' people then may I be one to state that your tactic of insulting them isn't working and it's reached a point now that even if you did say something credible, few on here would now respect it on that basis because of what you've stated in the past. YOU think the Brexit negotiations are shite because you think Brexit is shite, by your own admittance. To a neutral how are they meant to respect your opinion? You've admitted your bias. And that is the purpose of my previous post; this is not a thread for people to explain or discuss what's going on or the potential ramifications from both viewpoints, it's the pro-EU/Anti-Brexit champions arguing with the pro-Brexit/Anti-EU advocates about whose opinion on brexit is most 'right'.

How is that conductive to informing others about the updates to the proceedings? *Something happens* "Oh this is terrible, this proves Brexit's a disaster, blood on your hands for the next generation!" "No this is great news, proves the EU was out to get us all along, things can only get better!"

Four. Hundred. Pages of this shit.
 
Vic said:
Anyway, yes I post in the hope that in the second referendum I might have persuaded some to vote Remain who previously voted Leave
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When is this second referendum?
And the percentage of the electorate that now wants us to leave is now more than the original vote,
so your fellow democracy deniers appear to be a dwindling band, it looks like all the hair pulling and footstamping
has produced the opposite effect.
I'm afraid screaming 'Brexit is shite' may not be the best approach, but God loves a trier.
 
blue cigar said:
I want brexit to happen and i am as left wing as you will find. Sorry to piss on your arrogant tory chips but maybe a bit of realism instead of perception will do you good.
Carry on.
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What point were you making - I think it has gone over your own head.

Tory? I come from Eccles / Salford
 
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mcfc1632 said:
Tory?

I come from Salford



What point were you making - I think it has gone over your own head.

Tory? I come from Eccles / Salford
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Some folk appear to have convinced themselves that anyone who voted out is a Tory, it's a comfort blanket with built
in ear plugs that just can't conceive that more than a goodly few are Labour voters.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
When is this second referendum?
And the percentage of the electorate that now wants us to leave is now more than the original vote,
so your fellow democracy deniers appear to be a dwindling band, it looks like all the hair pulling and footstamping
has produced the opposite effect.
I'm afraid screaming 'Brexit is shite' may not be the best approach, but God loves a trier.
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We had the 2nd referendum in June 2016.

The 3rd referendum will be on a date yet to be determined.
 
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