I feel like I'm watching some sort of breakdown happen in real time and it's uncomfortable viewing.
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I feel like I'm watching some sort of breakdown happen in real time and it's uncomfortable viewing.
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blueinsa
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Its not about today or tomorrow.
Its not even about the next few years.
Its about the future, the next 10/20/30/40....years and our place in the world, free of a bloc hell bent on destroying nation states as it proceeds at pace, regardless of costs on its self proclaimed destiny towards federalism.
Its a path that for the majority in this country was unpalatable, one we never voted for and one we felt we where being led down without being asked if we wanted it and at the first opportunity we gave our answer.
Absolutely and if a few people campaigning, without time budget and resources, against the mobilised might of the government and vested interest groups are open to a charge of 'lies and spin' - then how does this really compare to the charge that should be placed against the insidious and assiduous narrative and actions of the EU, its UK sycophants and vested interest groups over a period of 40+ years.
Lies and spin that have then been surreptitiously formalised within the various treaties - and finally rejected by the UK populace.
Lies and spin that have then been surreptitiously formalised within the various treaties - and finally rejected by the UK populace.
smudgedj
Well-Known Member
Reduction in immigration was government policy. The remain campaign was based on control of immigration. Take Back Control. Did you forget the slogan? Google is your friend if needed.
I also understand that it's the working-class people who experience the downsides of immigration, shame you can't see that.
Magicpole
Well-Known Member
Boris Johnson says freedom of movement can continue after Brexit
Who knew?
Total piss case as every single thing that gave the Brexiteers a hard on being back tracked on.
Again, who knew? :)
Who knew?
Total piss case as every single thing that gave the Brexiteers a hard on being back tracked on.
Again, who knew? :)
blueparrot
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What downside side of immigration do you understand the working class experience ? Doesnt matter as taking controll of immigration is starting to look more and more like keep it as near as we can to what it was before the brexit vote.
My guess is the leavers are going to be just as dissapointed as the remainers with the final deal whenever that comes, not just on immigration either.
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blueinsa
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During an implementation phase and he uses the the word and its key here "could".
Did you expect a statement saying "as of Monday 9am the borders are closed"?
Its hilarious to see those wanting to remain now in outcry at things they actually want and support but it was never about the substance for them was it and everything to do with them not wanting to be wrong or actually losing the argument and vote.
Again, we are still in the EU. We still pay our weekly subs, fuck all has changed other than we have begun a process of eventually leaving and until we actually leave, non of us have any idea as to what that day will look like but if we allow migration for a period of time after that date as part of any deal we strike then ive no issue with it because it isnt about today or tomorrow, its everything about the future of this country and its standing in the world.
Not one leave voter on here at least is feeling let down or cheated by these announcements, not one.
AlgarveBlu
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To be fair to BoJo that's not a deviation from what he said during the campaign, he just said it could be controlled which does not automatically convert to reduced. His ticket was control of our affairs and sovereignty, I actually think he has no problem with current levels of migration as he sees it as essential for the expansion of the economy and Propping up the Nhs
Helmet Cole
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Doesn't bother me. Anyone with a brain knows we need immigration, for me its all about escaping the weird and slightly sinister EU 'project'.
smudgedj
Well-Known Member
Of course it can. You can have free movement as long as you have the ability to limit the availability of work, housing and welfare to new arrivals.
If they don't build strawmen to argue against, they literally have nothing to argue because there's no information out there to debate.
This is a perfect example of people being arrogant or blinkered enough to presume that the world is the way they want it to be and only constructing their thoughts around it. Brexit will definitely fail according to them or Brexit won't be delivered, whichever suits the situation. So anything that can possibly be used to confirm this is posted and poured over even if it's a fantasy and anything that denies this is ignored.
They're talking to themselves rather than other people.
The perfect fumble
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"Once you are certain as I am" What kind of language is this? I'll tell you what it is, it is the language of zealotry. Be assured I and millions like me will never be as certain as you because that kind of certainty comes from faith, it is not grounded in logic and no....
amount of propaganda, because that is what it would be, will change that.
Unneeded immigration? Jesus Christ!! lets hope you're not infected with Daily Mail benefit tourism disease and proceed from there. If you accept the reality that immigrants are economic migrants, that they come here to work, that means employers want to hire them. Trying to follow your twisted logic I'm assuming you still want the pick off the skills crop, software engineers, doctors, people who have been trained at no cost to us and we can squeeze the value added out of them for our benefit (and at a loss to their country of origin). But those jobs that are unskilled, like fruit picking and so on should be done by our "own" people. But our own people don't want to do these jobs because the wages are too low, a Romanian fruit picker might send his money back and it goes a long way in the Carpathian mountains but it doesn't go quite so far at the local Lidl in Dagenham.
So in order for this land fit for Englishmen to succeed wages will have to rise for all these low paid jobs, so that locals will take them, or, as is more likely under these Tory fuckers, benefits will be squeezed and unemployment will be "the price worth paying" to drive people to take these jobs at poverty wages and that is the likeliest scenario...Why? Because business won't pay and they will scream and with some justification, that they'll be uncompetitive! Or in some cases go bust! If they are forced to pay a real living wage.
So who will buckle I wonder? We all know the answer, the fucking Tories will and they are doing it already.....
Brexit secretary says on BBC Question Time special that number of immigrants will go up ‘from time to time’ according to economic need
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-sometimes-rise-after-brexit-says-david-davis
Hang on? How many surgeons and software engineers do we need, they can't count for more than a few thousand, he can't mean cheap casual unskilled labour can he? you know the great unwashed who lower wages for our people, use up services like school places and houses for our people, who squat in our National Heath Service beds, he can't mean those people can he? No surely not, it's a point based system from now on, employers are going to have to make low paid unskilled jobs better paid and still be competitive in the super soaraway global Britain the Brexiters are creating! No, Davis must have been having a laugh, because control means reduction surely? Hang in, what's this....
“I don’t think most people oppose migration; I think most people are in favour of migration so long as it’s managed. The point is, it will need to be managed.”
David Davis
Oh, seems when you said....
You were, as you always are, simply wrong, but then again, you know it. That is why your posts reek of wilful duplicity. There'll be no reduction in immigration, the people with real power make money off these "unneeded" immigrants. You've had your day, you've had your "people's power" referendum, it's you still living in the past, your glorious summer of 2016. it's Len Rum and others who see the world for what it is now in 2017 and for the foreseeable future. Here on in you're right about only one thing, Brexit is all about "our" people, but sadly for you only the people that matter.
As for "beneficial" whatever benefits are to be had from this tissue of lies won't flow in the direction of the vast majority of leavers, of that you can be certain. You and I both know where these benefits will flow, the difference between us is I'm honest about it and you're not.
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Well this is a turn up.
YOU'RE A ZEALOT. In fact I don't even think that you claim not to be a zealot. It's the one thing you're most known for on this forum is your absolute zealotry of far left politics, a position you've taken pride in on numerous occasions. You accusing somebody else of zealotry might be the most ludicrous thing I've ever seen on this forum.
Not to say that they aren't displaying zealotry of course, only that you accusing them of such is stupidly hypocritical as a key component to your "argument". And I do use that term very loosely because you've barely defined one throughout this entire thread and the post you've made above when broken down doesn't really say much at all, apart from speculating that unemployed people are turning their noses up at jobs they deem beneath them which is typical Tory-lite bullshit and has been debunked by, oh I don't know, about 400 years of economic thought.
Do you know what's funny to me? I already know almost every single opinion you hold on almost every single topic without every reading what you're written about it. Because the problem with zealotry is that you decide what "your side's" argument is and then take that position without thinking about the issue in any meaningful way. You decide your opinions before you actually have those opinions which doesn't just make you stupider than most of the BNP lot who used to be here but infinitely more tedious than them aswell.
I'd like to point out that I'm also a "Remainer" seems as so you're so fucking desperate to use these divisive terms to form out-groups and Others that you can build strawmen against and hope that nobody else notices (hint: everybody notices), but the difference between you and me is that I voted Remain because I thought the world would be a better place. The decision was something I poured over and looked at the merits of all sides, eventually determining that I should vote to ensure the world I wanted to see rather than be pragmatic. I didn't decide that anybody who voted Leave was a stupid racist, I didn't lie to myself that their argument have no intellectual merit and throw terms around like "illogical" that actually have a specific meaning that isn't "I disagree", and I didn't then sit on forums months after the vote still chanting like a mantra about "Brexiteers" and how everybody can't see through the lies apart from my obviously highly superior self.
I voted Remain and then when it lost I was a bit disappointed but then understood that the democratic will of the people is more important than my arrogant presumptions. Because it's just a political vote for us, whereas for you and a few like you this is an all out religious war. You've declared Jihad on Brexit as a notion and against those who voted for it and watching you try to intellectualise this into something meaningful and "the only logical option" is currently a great pleasure.
You're pauldominic without the Churches.
Well what an inarticulate rant.
I might be tempted to respond if:
a) I was not on my phone
b) I was not in the pub
c) I was not a lot more interested in preparing to watch City play, or
d) That crap was remotely worth bothering to reply to - fucking hell you, of all people, call me a zealot.
Damocles was right in his post to len - you guys just talk to yourselves
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blueinsa
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Ouch! Mr Fumble's been rumbled. :)
Helmet Cole
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Looks like the institute of export membership are all sat in a circle wanking and crying to each other. Meanwhile life goes on.
Magicpole
Well-Known Member
It's I retesting the Brexiteer populists fail to see you called them zealots too.
They see only what they want to see.
Your assertion that Fumble is a zealot is laughable, and I suppose I'm
In that group you alluded to.
Imagine you were out with your mates and you voted Harry shoukd drive. Harry then proceeds to try and run you all over a cliff
Do you just go over it because you voted for Harry?
Or wrestle the wheel from the deluded **** and try to save yourself.
That's brexit.
Keep it up Fumble.
Everything we have been saying about the realities of the populist bullshit the Brexiteers swallowed is unraveling like we said it would.
The paint isn't even dry in the letter and every viagra aspect of the leave campaigns lies is unraveling.
Who knew?
We fucking did.
The perfect fumble
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I know it's not fashionable anymore to see the world through the prism of class and critics, and you're clearly one of them, seem to spit their most poisonous venom at those that do.
I don't find that strange, you strike me as a classic liberal, a hybrid with bolted on new one worldism, but a liberal nonetheless, but this is only guess work of course, despite a fine political heritage liberals defy definition, they're a moving feast, they seem to hold whatever opinions they deem liberal at any one time, then you blink and they've changed. For most of the last century liberalism seemed to consist of not much more than being nice and not beastly and definitely not being Labour or Conservative.
Liberals in my experience always seem to have an aversion to anyone who thinks that people might have common cause, that life chances and the world we live in are very much dictated by circumstances beyond our control, paramount among them the circumstances of our birth.
Liberals refuse to acknowledge that power, who holds it and to what end and how that power is wielded under an economic system we all live under, but rarely shape, is the defining issue in society. This model directly impacts our ability to put a roof over our head and put food on the table and our role in this system is more important than race, gender or any other defining characteristic. And because you refuse to acknowledge that it makes your pronouncements meaningless That is not a put down, it is the sole reason why liberals and the left, who share so much in common never make common cause, and if you were looking for a reason why the right always wins that is it.
If history can be summed up at all it is a struggle for power....Tribes, regions, between countries and a more localised struggle between those that have power and those that don't within the nation state, unless you're a Marxist dreamer of course and believe in the global struggle of the working class or some right wing conspiracy theorist in to the illuminati or some racist Jewish conspiracy nonsense.
I believe the things I do not because I'm a left wing zealot, I'm a social democrat, no Marxist Nirvana for me, I accept that capitalism is the modus operandi, a great generator of wealth but one that hoards too much in the hands of the few. Everything around me tells me this is true, in my daily life and in the things that have been. The Brexit referendum was but a blip, where true zealots took the reins, lied through their teeth and steered this country very close to the cliff edge and in so doing jeopardised the interests of those that hold power, so now Davis, Johnson, Fox and the re-born convert May are back peddling to appease them. As for the little people, the 52%, the 48%, you, me, mcfc1632, we don't mean jack shit in this process.
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smudgedj
Well-Known Member
I see the Australian trade minister asked for submissions from interested parties about an 'Inquiry into Australia’s trade and investment relationship with the United Kingdom’
So the nice Trade Minister Liam Fox sent a letter
http://facts4eu.org/main_images/uk_submission_aus_trade_committee.pdf
However the EU sent a letter, not from their Trade Minister/President/Commissioner but from the EU Commission’s Brexit negotiation team
http://facts4eu.org/main_images/eu_submission_aus_trade_committee.pdf
The EU tells Australia that UK can’t talk trade because it's still a member of the EU.
Also they recieved a letter from the 'Australian Business in Europe (France)’ group stating that
The UK has better things to do than organise a FTA with Australia because "the UK will prioritise a tariff free FTA with the EU"
Not sure why the EU's Brexit negotiators sent the letter and not by its Trade Commissioner which was less about trade more about stopping the UK from talking about its future trade with Australia.
However I am sure that the Australians will really appreciate being told whom they can talk to.
So the nice Trade Minister Liam Fox sent a letter
http://facts4eu.org/main_images/uk_submission_aus_trade_committee.pdf
However the EU sent a letter, not from their Trade Minister/President/Commissioner but from the EU Commission’s Brexit negotiation team
http://facts4eu.org/main_images/eu_submission_aus_trade_committee.pdf
The EU tells Australia that UK can’t talk trade because it's still a member of the EU.
Also they recieved a letter from the 'Australian Business in Europe (France)’ group stating that
The UK has better things to do than organise a FTA with Australia because "the UK will prioritise a tariff free FTA with the EU"
Not sure why the EU's Brexit negotiators sent the letter and not by its Trade Commissioner which was less about trade more about stopping the UK from talking about its future trade with Australia.
However I am sure that the Australians will really appreciate being told whom they can talk to.
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