Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[hgblue]

Bollocks back. It was May who announced we were leaving the single market and the customs union. Don't blame the EU.

The EU have made it clear that single market membership comes with freedom of movement, that's fair enough but effectively rules out remaining in the single market.

 

[The perfect fumble]

With regards business professionals though it would be good if they could be recruited into the Civil Service. Their attitude and and experience of setting and achieving targets could bring about a much needed culture change.

11 Oct 2010

Sir Philip Green, the billionaire Top Shop owner, will today publish the results of his investigation of Whitehall spending.

The report will focus fresh attention on the way public bodies use taxpayers’ money, and put pressure on managers to follow private sector practices for controlling costs and eliminating waste.

.......................

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10961240

But his appointment was criticised by Paul Kenny, head of the GMB union, who pointed out that Sir Philip's wife - the named owner of Arcadia - lives in the tax haven of Monaco.

He said: "If we were seeking advice about marketing or selling clothes he is someone you might ask. This is about the health, education and care of millions of our fellow citizens - not about importing cheap clothing."

And the Public and Commercial Services Union, which represents civil servants, said: "It's not that surprising that the millionaires in the cabinet have appointed a billionaire to say that their cuts, which will devastate communities in the UK, are 'fair'."

But Cabinet Office Minister Francis Maude defended Sir Philip's appointment, saying he had a "sharp eye for detail" and could guide the government on contracts and leases signed up to in future.

...........................

I remember that review, his recommendation was the government could save money by not paying their bills on time.

Private sector contractors driven by the profit motive learn very quickly the best way to make money is to fleece the public purse. They'll achieve targets alright, but if the targets are bullshit you just get bullshit served with a smile.

Like Green they all have a "sharp eye for detail" but all too often the average man or woman in the street is not one of those details, but who gives a shit eh? You're happy to be ignorant on Brexit details or even the direction of travel, it's all got to be hush, hush and leave it to the professionals, they'll see us right.

Your naivety and servile obsequiousness makes my skin crawl.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Chapeau my friend, chapeau!

 

[mcfc1632]

Bollocks back. It was May who announced we were leaving the single market and the customs union. Don't blame the EU.

That is without any doubt, IMO, the most stupid and inaccurate thing that has been posted on here (actually anywhere) - and given the competition that you have with fumble etc. that does take some real talent.

Faster than a speeding bullet etc. you render every comment you and others that hold this view, have made on this thread to be utterly irrelevant and demonstrate how those that have been trying to calmly explain the reality of how things have panned out have been absolutely wasting their time.

Fucking hell - what fuckwittery!!

 

[mcfc1632]

11 Oct 2010

Sir Philip Green, the billionaire Top Shop owner, will today publish the results of his investigation of Whitehall spending.

The report will focus fresh attention on the way public bodies use taxpayers’ money, and put pressure on managers to follow private sector practices for controlling costs and eliminating waste.

.......................

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10961240

But his appointment was criticised by Paul Kenny, head of the GMB union, who pointed out that Sir Philip's wife - the named owner of Arcadia - lives in the tax haven of Monaco.

He said: "If we were seeking advice about marketing or selling clothes he is someone you might ask. This is about the health, education and care of millions of our fellow citizens - not about importing cheap clothing."

And the Public and Commercial Services Union, which represents civil servants, said: "It's not that surprising that the millionaires in the cabinet have appointed a billionaire to say that their cuts, which will devastate communities in the UK, are 'fair'."

But Cabinet Office Minister Francis Maude defended Sir Philip's appointment, saying he had a "sharp eye for detail" and could guide the government on contracts and leases signed up to in future.

...........................

I remember that review, his recommendation was the government could save money by not paying their bills on time.

Private sector contractors driven by the profit motive learn very quickly the best way to make money is to fleece the public purse. They'll achieve targets alright, but if the targets are bullshit you just get bullshit served with a smile.

Like Green they all have a "sharp eye for detail" but all too often the average man or woman in the street is not one of those details, but who gives a shit eh? You're happy to be ignorant on Brexit details or even the direction of travel, it's all got to be hush, hush and leave it to the professionals, they'll see us right.

Your naivety and servile obsequiousness makes my skin crawl.

Just what point is this pathetic post meaning to make?? I have read it twice and cannot understand how it has anything to do with the post of mine that you are quoting.

Amusingly, I have just replied to a post of Vic's and commented within that the competition he faces from you in posting irrelevant and stupid crap.

I immediately questioned myself if I was being unfair - and then I read this - LOL.

As someone that has previously been requested to provide input to the head of the Civil Service on bringing business skills into the CS and on how the career structures could be developed to achieve 'real life' understanding of SCS grades, I feel totally qualified to regard your post as something issued by a cheapskate / tosser who has no real understanding of the subject matter.

 

[Vic]

That is without any doubt, IMO, the most stupid and inaccurate thing that has been posted on here (actually anywhere) - and given the competition that you have with fumble etc. that does take some real talent.

Faster than a speeding bullet etc. you render every comment you and others that hold this view, have made on this thread to be utterly irrelevant and demonstrate how those that have been trying to calmly explain the reality of how things have panned out have been absolutely wasting their time.

Fucking hell - what fuckwittery!!

We can't call you a thick Brexiteer but you can talk about my being a fuckwit. Did you miss May's speech in January which finally declared the hard Brexit line?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/

 

[Vic]

Just what point is this pathetic post meaning to make?? I have read it twice and cannot understand how it has anything to do with the post of mine that you are quoting.

Amusingly, I have just replied to a post of Vic's and commented within that the competition he faces from you in posting irrelevant and stupid crap.

I immediately questioned myself if I was being unfair - and then I read this - LOL.

As someone that has previously been requested to provide input to the head of the Civil Service on bringing business skills into the CS and on how the career structures could be developed to achieve 'real life' understanding of SCS grades, I feel totally qualified to regard your post as something issued by a cheapskate / tosser who has no real understanding of the subject matter.

The point was obvious. You suggest "business professionals" could be recruited into the civil service. Fumble cites Philip Green's appointment in 2010 to advise Whitehall - PHILIP GREEN, you've heard of him? Is he the sort of business professional you had in mind? Business skills like robbing his staff of their pensions? Mike Ashley to advise on fair workers' contracts?

 

[The perfect fumble]

Just what point is this pathetic post meaning to make?? I have read it twice and cannot understand how it has anything to do with the post of mine that you are quoting.

Amusingly, I have just replied to a post of Vic's and commented within that the competition he faces from you in posting irrelevant and stupid crap.

I immediately questioned myself if I was being unfair - and then I read this - LOL.

As someone that has previously been requested to provide input to the head of the Civil Service on bringing business skills into the CS and on how the career structures could be developed to achieve 'real life' understanding of SCS grades, I feel totally qualified to regard your post as something issued by a cheapskate / tosser who has no real understanding of the subject matter.

I can barely contain my laughter. You think that by informing a cheapskate tosser like me that you had....

"been requested to provide input to the head of the Civil Service on bringing business skills into the CS and on how the career structures could be developed to achieve 'real life' understanding of SCS grades"

destroys my argument, when all it does is reinforce it.

I've sat in rooms while pompous windbags with nothing but contempt for the public sector ethos, have filled the void with their wafer thin twaddle about superior private sector acumen, pocketed a healthy consultancy fee and achieved nothing except demoralise the poor civil servants unfortunate to be trapped in their presence.

Guys like you come spouting their guff with boring regularity, a by product of some minister's wet dream initiative. You achieve nothing.

You should play more golf and leave this topic to those who have something to add to the debate.

 

[smudgedj]

Everyones favorite Prime Minister is back

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/79...017-Labour-Tim-Farron-Brexit-Liberal-Democrat

TONY Blair has admitted the Brexit result has encouraged him to return to politics – and revealed he wants to become a key player by getting his "hands dirty" to "shape policy" in Britain.

This Brexit thing has given me a direct motivation to get more involved in the politics. You need to get your hands dirty and I will… I am going to be taking an active part in trying to shape the policy debate.

And, of course, everyone's favorite quote

This is not about defying the will of the people.

 

[mcfc1632]

The point was obvious. You suggest "business professionals" could be recruited into the civil service. Fumble cites Philip Green's appointment in 2010 to advise Whitehall - PHILIP GREEN, you've heard of him? Is he the sort of business professional you had in mind? Business skills like robbing his staff of their pensions? Mike Ashley to advise on fair workers' contracts?

Just a silly and cheap reply by fumble.

I was talking about business professionals in the context of, as I stated:

"The Civil Service career path essentially precludes there being Senior Civil Servants that have practical experience of 'managing' and 'achieving'."

The intent being that changes are made to the career structures and training methods to ensure that the Civil Servants gain themselves the experience to working in a manner that reflects planning and managing achievement.

That is the opposite of getting some 'big name' in to pronounce their opinions.

I have been part of a group providing advice on the development of the CS career structures because the head of the CS at the time recognised that the structure sees graduates fast tracked into Senior CS roles and once achieving that elevation they have actually no real world experience.

It would indeed be good if the methods used in the private sector with regard 'managing and achieving' could be introduced to the CS.

Fumble and then you, bringing up Phillip Green just shows your desperation - you could have said Maxwell and many others - but it would only be as relevant or valid as we citing names of Civil Servants and politicians that have been caught out in scandals.

It was clear that I was referring to the methods of 'managing and achieving' not 'big names' - because I said so - as I say a silly and cheap response by you both.

Desperate stuff.

 

[mcfc1632]

I've sat in rooms while pompous windbags with nothing but contempt for the public sector ethos, have filled the void with their wafer thin twaddle about superior private sector acumen, pocketed a healthy consultancy fee and achieved nothing except demoralise the poor civil servants unfortunate to be trapped in their presence.

TBF I only provided the advice, I was not responsible for the implementation.

It was recognised that many in the CS would relish the opportunity to be more challenged and accountable whilst many others would not have capability to adapt being comfortable in their closeted life.

You seem to be proof those concerns were indeed valid.

 

[mcfc1632]

We can't call you a thick Brexiteer but you can talk about my being a fuckwit. Did you miss May's speech in January which finally declared the hard Brexit line?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/

Wow - I cannot decide if you are just unwilling to accept facts and just twist in the wind or you really cannot see that your point that the UK leaving the single market is fully 'down to the UK' is nonsense.

I will try one more time and take you through it a bit more slowly.

Step 1. We had a referendum - can you recall - it was on 23/06/16. Now can you agree with that?

Step 2. The result was an instruction to the UK government that the majority of the electorate wished to leave the EU. Now can you agree with that?

Step 3. It was widely acknowledged that the main drivers were the electorate wanting control of our borders, money and laws. Now can you agree with that?

Step 4. The EU are clear that membership of the Single Market is dependent on acceptance of the '4 freedoms'. Now can you agree with that?

Step 5. The EU state that membership of the Customs Union means that we cannot negotiate our own trade deals. Now can you agree with that?

Step 6. Acceptance by the UK of the 4 freedoms would not in any way achieve the intended outcomes of the UK having control of our borders, money and laws. Now can you agree with that?

Step 7. So when setting out the UK's position in progressing the process for leaving the EU the UK had to acknowledge the EU's insistence on their position being not subject to any change or exceptions. Ergo, we are forced to leave the Single Market and customs Union entirely because of the EU's positions and to this point intransigence. Now can you agree with that?

Step 8. May's speeches and the A50 notice advise our recognition of the EU's positions - but it is all about the EU's positions and not the UK's extremism. Now can you agree with that?

Let me know how far you got before losing it - or preferably let me know that you now understand.

p.s. sorry about the fuckwittery comment - it was late and I had more than a few beers - but fucking hell some of the stuff posted on here!!

 

[mcfc1632]

...................leave this topic to those who have something to add to the debate.

TBF I would suggest that the quality that you have added to the debate is widely recognised by most on this thread.

 

[smudgedj]

Hidden in all that German is a the fact that May told Junker that the UK didn't owe any money to the EU.

 

[mcfc1632]

You would think that everyone on here would commend her for 'firing a shot across the bows' and not simply accepting all the extreme positions that the EU are setting out.

Unfortunately................

 

[The perfect fumble]

TBF I only provided the advice, I was not responsible for the implementation.

It was recognised that many in the CS would relish the opportunity to be more challenged and accountable whilst many others would not have capability to adapt being comfortable in their closeted life.

You seem to be proof those concerns were indeed valid.

How so, I'm not a civil servant? If you want to get in to willy wangling over critical path analysis or key performance indicators then bring it on big boy!

As for....

whilst many others would not have capability to adapt being comfortable in their closeted life.

Closeted life? Oh do grow up! What's the view like from up there?

Capitalism is an economic system, it's not the meaning of life, the universe and everything, it's not a universal panacea. Knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing does not entitle you to lecture people who have a calling other than screwing their granny over for a fast buck.

 

[Vic]

I think he probably approves of appointing someone who had board responsibility for safety at a refinery that blew up to be head of the civil service.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Manzoni

 

[blueish swede]

Wow - I cannot decide if you are just unwilling to accept facts and just twist in the wind or you really cannot see that your point that the UK leaving the single market is fully 'down to the UK' is nonsense.

I will try one more time and take you through it a bit more slowly.

Step 1. We had a referendum - can you recall - it was on 23/06/16. Now can you agree with that?

Step 2. The result was an instruction to the UK government that the majority of the electorate wished to leave the EU. Now can you agree with that?

Step 3. It was widely acknowledged that the main drivers were the electorate wanting control of our borders, money and laws. Now can you agree with that?

Step 4. The EU are clear that membership of the Single Market is dependent on acceptance of the '4 freedoms'. Now can you agree with that?

Step 5. The EU state that membership of the Customs Union means that we cannot negotiate our own trade deals. Now can you agree with that?

Step 6. Acceptance by the UK of the 4 freedoms would not in any way achieve the intended outcomes of the UK having control of our borders, money and laws. Now can you agree with that?

Step 7. So when setting out the UK's position in progressing the process for leaving the EU the UK had to acknowledge the EU's insistence on their position being not subject to any change or exceptions. Ergo, we are forced to leave the Single Market and customs Union entirely because of the EU's positions and to this point intransigence. Now can you agree with that?

Step 8. May's speeches and the A50 notice advise our recognition of the EU's positions - but it is all about the EU's positions and not the UK's extremism. Now can you agree with that?

Let me know how far you got before losing it - or preferably let me know that you now understand.

p.s. sorry about the fuckwittery comment - it was late and I had more than a few beers - but fucking hell some of the stuff posted on here!!

Sorry @mcfc1632 I don't post in this thread normally because I think the level of understanding of the EU is generally uinformed. You have tried to explain your view in as simple a way as possible in your post above but it has simply made clear that you are unable to make any sense of this issues at all. Your point 4 is an excellent example of your misunderstanding:

Step 4. The EU are clear that membership of the Single Market is dependent on acceptance of the '4 freedoms'.

The single market is the four freedoms - the freedom to provide services across the EU, the freedom to move capital across the EU, the freedom to provide goods across the EU and the freedom of movement of citizens to take up employment across the EU. These are defined in their georaphical extent by a common border for trade- the customs union.

The UK voted to leave the customs union in a referendum on June 23 of last year.
The UK voted to leave the single market for goods in a referendum on 23 June of last year.
The UK voted to leave the single market for services in a referendum on 23 June of last year.
The UK voted to leave the single market for capital in a referendum on 23 June of last year.
The UK voted to leave the single area for movement of people ina referendum on 23 June last year.

How can this possibly this correspond to "intransigence from the EU"?

 

[mcfc1632]

;

Carry on golfing.

You'll be pleased to know that you can devote even more time to being a club house bore. Your vacuous obfuscation has won the day! From now on I'll not be responding to the voices in your head and you can continue unimpeded to post your meandering rubbish to your ever dwindling fan club.

Fuck me you have done some flouncing and drawn out departures from this thread but surely this must be a new PB for you?

More than 2 weeks since your most recent flounce - but you're still here.

Seeing as you are around, rather than more of your distracting the thread by deliberately taking things out of context, why not have a try at answering the question I put to you a couple of weeks ago:

'.......you have a problem explaining the inconsistency with your craving for a 'left-wing model' and opposition to leaving the EU.'

Given that the left wing model that you crave simply cannot come forward whilst we remain in the EU I would have expected a really profound answer form you.

Is your silence because you are more of a faux left-winger - or just someone that likes to make arguments and post about topics whether consistent with their views or not?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Sorry @mcfc1632 I don't post in this thread normally because I think the level of understanding of the EU is generally uinformed. You have tried to explain your view in as simple a way as possible in your post above but it has simply made clear that you are unable to make any sense of this issues at all. Your point 4 is an excellent example of your misunderstanding:

Step 4. The EU are clear that membership of the Single Market is dependent on acceptance of the '4 freedoms'.

The single market is the four freedoms - the freedom to provide services across the EU, the freedom to move capital across the EU, the freedom to provide goods across the EU and the freedom of movement of citizens to take up employment across the EU. These are defined in their georaphical extent by a common border for trade- the customs union.

The UK voted to leave the customs union in a referendum on June 23 of last year.
The UK voted to leave the single market for goods in a referendum on 23 June of last year.
The UK voted to leave the single market for services in a referendum on 23 June of last year.
The UK voted to leave the single market for capital in a referendum on 23 June of last year.
The UK voted to leave the single area for movement of people ina referendum on 23 June last year.

How can this possibly this correspond to "intransigence from the EU"?

Sorry to interject blueswede. But no one in the UK voted for any of those four freedoms or some would say shackles. Sucessive unelected EU mandarins have forced their ideals on the peoples of Europe they just believe they are right and ignore all other views. This arrogance has been compounded by national governments denying their own people a vote on these issues. Until last June.