Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

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Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
of course not every single leave voter voted for a hard brexit, but if you dont leave the single market you arent leaving the eu. the margin of victory was 1 million + people, thats how referendums work, leave won. i dont think anyone saying cut all ties though both labour and the conservatives are saying they want out of the single market, there is no such thing imo as a hard brexit there is just brexit. a lot of people didn't vote on brexit in this election, they voted for all sorts of reasons anyway.

do you think if we left the single market the economy would crash and burn ? labour seem to disagree wit hthat.
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Norway and Switzerland are not in the EU and are in the single market. The Remain camp stated to leave the EU meant leaving the single market as a scare tactic. The Leave camp stated that leaving the EU did not necessarily mean leaving the single market. This was a comfort tactic. The point remains that you can be in the single market and not be in the EU. The same applies to the Customs Union which from a trade and NI border perspective is just as crucial. We can be in the CU without being in the EU.
 
I voted remain purely on the grounds that nobody actually knew what they were voting for if we left . Nobody still has a clue what's on offer or not on offer . The country voted to leave , so we get on with it , but it's one huge fuck up at present
 
BobKowalski said:
Norway and Switzerland are not in the EU and are in the single market. The Remain camp stated to leave the EU meant leaving the single market as a scare tactic. The Leave camp stated that leaving the EU did not necessarily mean leaving the single market. This was a comfort tactic. The point remains that you can be in the single market and not be in the EU. The same applies to the Customs Union which from a trade and NI border perspective is just as crucial. We can be in the CU without being in the EU.
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NI could stay in the single market (matching the Rep.) but it throws up the CTA in the air as EU citizens would use Ireland as an easy way into the UK.

Irish naturalisation is 3 years if married to an Irish citizen, or 5 based on residence btw.

Maybe CTA could be retained for British/Irish born only. I'm sure someone would call it racist though as it would require differentiating a citizen from a citizen born here. It's sensible when you consider part of why the CTA exists though.
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
Many opinion polls show that the leave vote would be even higher. Not saying opinion polls are accurate I am just throwing it out there.
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Kate Hoey, Labour, greatly increased her majority, she was a leave campaigner.
Tim Farron LIbDem, won his seat, with a greatly reduced majority, he was a staunch remainer who won't accept the result.
Nick Clegg, a remainer, got thrown out completely.
There is no mandate to ditch Brexit, even though remainers are trying to pin the election
result on a victory for them, it isn't, both leaders of the largest parties have stated this country will leave the
single market. Somehow, the more strident remainers have convinced themselves that it was solely
Conservative voters that voted to leave, which is not, and never was, the case.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Kate Hoey, Labour, greatly increased her majority, she was a leave campaigner.
Tim Farron LIbDem, won his seat, with a greatly reduced majority, he was a staunch remainer who won't accept the result.
There is no mandate to ditch Brexit, even though remainers are trying to pin the election
result on a victory for them, it isn't, both leaders of the largest parties have stated this country will leave the
single market. Somehow, the more strident remainers have convinced themselves that it was solely
Conservative voters that voted to leave, which is not, and never was, the case.
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Hence the term Tory Brexit even though they know May was a remainer. The leave voters covered every political spectrum as did remain voters and in general they knew that it was all about leaving the single market because every TV debate and pamphlet covered that in some detail.
 
The general election had fuck all to do with Brexit.
I know no one for whom it was an electoral issue.

The Tories tried to set the agenda and failed totally.
 
denislawsbackheel said:
The general election had fuck all to do with Brexit.
I know no one for whom it was an electoral issue.

The Tories tried to set the agenda and failed totally.
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I would agree with all of that.
However, since the election, remainers have tried to dress up the result as some mandate for this
'Soft Brexit' nonsense. It isn't.
 
In the last 24 hours I've heard people say that if we don't have EU immigrants we'll have shortages in nursing, farming and construction. All of them said we need to train more people from the UK.

All the stats say that even with a higher retirement age, even with automation, we face not just a skills shortage but a workforce shortage.

I don't believe the EU nationals getting jobs in warehouses round the motorways are taking jobs from British people. They're taking jobs from people who won't get on a bike to cycle to work at 5 a.m.

No I didn't mean to channel Tebbit.
 
Vic said:
In the last 24 hours I've heard people say that if we don't have EU immigrants we'll have shortages in nursing, farming and construction. All of them said we need to train more people from the UK.

All the stats say that even with a higher retirement age, even with automation, we face not just a skills shortage but a workforce shortage.

I don't believe the EU nationals getting jobs in warehouses round the motorways are taking jobs from British people. They're taking jobs from people who won't get on a bike to cycle to work at 5 a.m.

No I didn't mean to channel Tebbit.
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Corbyn himself believes that British workers are being ousted by companies using agencies to fill factories with EU migrants. Having worked in that sector I have seen whole organisations up sticks move their distribution centres miles away and employ hundreds of EU migrants. Labour have constantly accused big business of employing EU migrants to water down rights for unskilled workers.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-better-off-out-of-eu-with-managed-migration
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
Hence the term Tory Brexit even though they know May was a remainer. The leave voters covered every political spectrum as did remain voters and in general they knew that it was all about leaving the single market because every TV debate and pamphlet covered that in some detail.
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Which is why May's decision to major on Brexit was yet another in her seemingly inexhaustable catalogue of duff decisions.

When you are 60-40 ahead in a poll, why on earth would you hang your hat on something that the nation is split pretty much 50-50 on? It's a monumentally stupid thing to do.

Either you are unsuccessful in persuading people that this is the most important thing, in which case why campaign about it. Or if you ARE successful, then you bring your lead back down from 60-40 to 52-48. Only a fool would choose this as a strategy. Oh, wait...
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
of course not every single leave voter voted for a hard brexit, but if you dont leave the single market you arent leaving the eu. the margin of victory was 1 million + people, thats how referendums work, leave won. i dont think anyone saying cut all ties though both labour and the conservatives are saying they want out of the single market, there is no such thing imo as a hard brexit there is just brexit. a lot of people didn't vote on brexit in this election, they voted for all sorts of reasons anyway.

do you think if we left the single market the economy would crash and burn ? labour seem to disagree wit hthat.
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It should possible to leave the single market but still negotiate a deal where we have access to it on not too dissimilar terms to now. That would require some compromise on free movement but still give us greater control over immigration. Perhaps as as starting point, or a transitional arrangement. To give us time to negotiate those free trade deals with the rest of the world.

Quite a few people that I know, or people whose comments I read during the referendum, said that their main issue wasnt really the current relationship between the UK and the EU. Their main concern was how the EU would develop. "Ever increasing union", further enlargement, more bailouts of the eurozone, the EU army etc. I'm not sure that most of the population want to see massive changes in the current relationship, more a reassurance that the UK is immunised against future federalisation. This far but no further (or perhaps a modest reigning back), but not taking a huge gamble on the future.

I dont think that if we left the single market the economy would necessarily crash and burn. I do think it will if we leave the single market with no deal.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Kate Hoey, Labour, greatly increased her majority, she was a leave campaigner.
Tim Farron LIbDem, won his seat, with a greatly reduced majority, he was a staunch remainer who won't accept the result.
Nick Clegg, a remainer, got thrown out completely.
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More cherrypicked spinning statistics which don't really prove a darned thing.

As possible alternative views:
Hoey - +3.6% rise in votes, but LibDem (presumably Remain) got +13.7%
Clegg is in a big student area, and students voted Labour.

Quoting majorities needs to be considered in view of any increase in total vote.
 
According to Tom Newton Dunn on Sky paper review tonight there is a meeting of the Brexit cabinet sub committee tomorrow when the gloves will be off.
Apparently spreadsheet Phil is going to press for membership of the customs union ( which means foxy Liam is out of a job).
May is reportedly out of it at the moment on Brexit and is just a figurehead.
Three months gone of the allotted 18 months ( two years less six months for the EU 27 to ratify the deal) and we still haven't even got the basics of a plan agreed.
YCNMIU Jeff.
 
1.618034 said:
It isn't going to happen, is it?

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.
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Nah something will happen but given we voted to leave a year ago, triggered Article 50 over two months ago and as of today the Govt and our political classes are tripping over their own cocks trying to figure what the hell kind of Brexit we want whilst simultaneously trying to climb out from under the giant steaming turd of an election doesn't fill anyone with confidence. I mean did you see May this evening? Christ on a bike Macron and co must be pissing themselves with laughter.
 
BobKowalski said:
Nah something will happen but given we voted to leave a year ago, triggered Article 50 over two months ago and as of today the Govt and our political classes are tripping over their own cocks trying to figure what the hell kind of Brexit we want whilst simultaneously trying to climb out from under the giant steaming turd of an election doesn't fill anyone with confidence. I mean did you see May this evening? Christ on a bike Macron and co must be pissing themselves with laughter.
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It's been an utter shambles from the start mate.
 
united-kingdom-inflation-cpi@2x.png


You'd think this on its own should have the most ardent Brexiter wondering whether it really is a good idea.
 
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