Attacks in Paris

Prestwich_Blue said:
Let's consider a few things about that statement.
  • It may be true that Muslims (rather than Islam) are responsible for the majority of religiously motivated violence currently. However, much of that involves the deaths of fellow Muslims so you can't really class it as Islam v the rest.
  • Had we been having this discussion 500 or 1,000 years ago, then we would have been talking about Christianity. The point has been made on here before that Islam is a relatively young religion that hasn't really come to terms with the world around it and the separation of church and state that Christianity experienced a few hundred years ago. It hasn't yet happened in the Middle East/Pakistan/Afghanistan & North Africa, although it's getting close in places like Malaysia & Indonesia and works reasonably well in Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain & Qatar.
  • Even some Muslim groups aren't doing it because they're Muslim. It's because they have a political motive (Hamas, Hezbollah, Taliban, Al Qaeda) in a regions of the word where there is tremendous political instability and tend to be populated by Muslims. Relatively few groups (ISIS & Boko Haram principally) are doing it primarily for religious reasons.
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1000 years ago we would have been 400 years into the Muslim conquests so depending where we were we could well be talking about Islam.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Let's consider a few things about that statement.
  • It may be true that Muslims (rather than Islam) are responsible for the majority of religiously motivated violence currently. However, much of that involves the deaths of fellow Muslims so you can't really class it as Islam v the rest.
  • Had we been having this discussion 500 or 1,000 years ago, then we would have been talking about Christianity. The point has been made on here before that Islam is a relatively young religion that hasn't really come to terms with the world around it and the separation of church and state that Christianity experienced a few hundred years ago. It hasn't yet happened in the Middle East/Pakistan/Afghanistan & North Africa, although it's getting close in places like Malaysia & Indonesia and works reasonably well in Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain & Qatar.
  • Even some Muslim groups aren't doing it because they're Muslim. It's because they have a political motive (Hamas, Hezbollah, Taliban, Al Qaeda) in a regions of the word where there is tremendous political instability and tend to be populated by Muslims. Relatively few groups (ISIS & Boko Haram principally) are doing it primarily for religious reasons.
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So you are saying as one of your points the Muslim religion is 500 to 1000 years behind Christianity? Ok when they have caught up let's let them come here again. I can live with that.
 
JoeMercer'sWay said:
worsleyweb in dislike of foreign country, foreign food and foreigners shocker.
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Not true. Love the Greeks, Italians, Spanish, French, Americans. Off to Cape Verdi for Xmas. In fact I still visit the Italian job in urmston every month and El rincon after every home game. I consider myself a proud European. Also can't beat sainsburys chicken korma.
 
we pretty much know who has been Syria ...............should be a simple no questions asked bullet in their head before they even get to plan any atrocities
 
KnaresboroughBlue said:
Like most of the wars of the 20th century, I'd say most of those deaths have a lot more to do with political ideologies than religion.
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They have to do with sick people hiding behind an ideology to justify their warped actions. I don't see any material difference between Nazism and Militant Islam tbh.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Let's consider a few things about that statement.
  • It may be true that Muslims (rather than Islam) are responsible for the majority of religiously motivated violence currently. However, much of that involves the deaths of fellow Muslims so you can't really class it as Islam v the rest.
  • Had we been having this discussion 500 or 1,000 years ago, then we would have been talking about Christianity. The point has been made on here before that Islam is a relatively young religion that hasn't really come to terms with the world around it and the separation of church and state that Christianity experienced a few hundred years ago. It hasn't yet happened in the Middle East/Pakistan/Afghanistan & North Africa, although it's getting close in places like Malaysia & Indonesia and works reasonably well in Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain & Qatar.
  • Even some Muslim groups aren't doing it because they're Muslim. It's because they have a political motive (Hamas, Hezbollah, Taliban, Al Qaeda) in a regions of the word where there is tremendous political instability and tend to be populated by Muslims. Relatively few groups (ISIS & Boko Haram principally) are doing it primarily for religious reasons.
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It may be true that Muslims (rather than Islam) are responsible for the majority of religiously motivated violence currently. However, much of that involves the deaths of fellow Muslims so you can't really class it as Islam v the rest.
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There's no 'may' about it mate, it's fact.

See for yourself, deaths by terrorism these year via Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2015

Also, I never added a prefix that it was "Islam vs the rest", only that it was violence with a religious motivation. Of which Islam is responsible for the most deaths, this isn't disputable. And yes, most of those deaths will be Muslims killing other Muslims. Still a problem - no?

Had we been having this discussion 500 or 1,000 years ago, then we would have been talking about Christianity. The point has been made on here before that Islam is a relatively young religion that hasn't really come to terms with the world around it and the separation of church and state that Christianity experienced a few hundred years ago. It hasn't yet happened in the Middle East/Pakistan/Afghanistan & North Africa, although it's getting close in places like Malaysia & Indonesia and works reasonably well in Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain & Qatar.
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True. But it's 2015AD. We're talking about the present. This all too often serves as a whataboutism for people to gloss over the reality of the scale of this religious violence in the present day. You're right to point out that the separation of church and state is something that was key to Christianity's moderation, but how far are we really from seeing that become more commonplace in the wider Middle East? Especially when this seems to be in direct opposition to many Muslims' beliefs that man made laws are unworthy when there is Sharia, God's law, as per the Koran?

This regression into deeply religious social conservatism is what seems to be culpable for a lot of the violence.

Even some Muslim groups aren't doing it because they're Muslim. It's because they have a political motive (Hamas, Hezbollah, Taliban, Al Qaeda) in a regions of the word where there is tremendous political instability and tend to be populated by Muslims. Relatively few groups (ISIS & Boko Haram principally) are doing it primarily for religious reasons.
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No one is implying that the violence is taking place because Muslims are inherently violent. They're not being violent because they're Muslim.

The violence is often motivated by religious belief however, this is inescapable. Religion often goes hand in hand with a political goal. They often meet nicely to serve one another.

None of the groups you highlighted are secular groups, religion is central to their goal, it runs parallel to their political goal.

They're all divided along sectarian lines also. And thus their religious beliefs differ, and their political goals, this is no coincidence.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Do you know where the US constitution draws it's authority from?
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iWKad22.jpg
 
route46 said:
we pretty much know who has been Syria ...............should be a simple no questions asked bullet in their head before they even get to plan any atrocities
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Not even ask them who packed their bags at customs first?? What about those who are travelling back near Syria and their plane has to land in Damascus for emergency technical reasons? Head shot when they land at East Midlands airport just to be on the safe side ? Could we not outsource the Final Solution and have all the mess at the Syrian end? I mean Assad's had plenty of practise at that sort of thing.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Do you know where the US constitution draws it's authority from?
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This is a tired argument

The constitution wasn't written last weekend was it?

There are a lot of laws in many countries based on religion

None of which hold a candle in barbarity compared to sharia law

Also laws in civilised countries tend to evolve and adapt over the years

Sharia law hasn't changed in centuries
 
IanBishopsHaircut said:
This is a tired argument

The constitution wasn't written last weekend was it?

There are a lot of laws in many countries based on religion

None of which hold a candle in barbarity compared to sharia law

Also laws in civilised countries tend to evolve and adapt over the years

Sharia law hasn't changed in centuries
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I must have imagined that Uganda place then. Not every Islamic country is under Sharia law.
 
Anyway back to the point I wanted to make. Does anyone here really think that if Islam didn't exist these fuckers in IS would be model citizens and everyone in the middle east would have the same rights and standard of living that we have in this part of the globe?
 
aguero93:20 said:
Anyway back to the point I wanted to make. Does anyone here really think that if Islam didn't exist these fuckers in IS would be model citizens and everyone in the middle east would have the same rights and standard of living that we have in this part of the globe?
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Dunno..but maybe if you were a woman..or homosexual..you might sleep better at night
 
KenTheLandlord said:
You seriously think Muslims in the name of Islam have killed more people than Christians in the last thirty or forty years.?
Why are the same questions not asked of fundamentalism in the US which has murdered millions.
Imposed sanctions on countries which have seen them in a permanent state of emergency and continue to arm anyone who will pretend to fight their enemies.
Why have ISIS got American humvees and weapons?

Sam Harris is an utter tit who has been hammered in too many discussions. An absolute shit stain on political debate.
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In the case of being specifically motivated by their faith to said violence (which is what I'm talking about)?

Yes.

The only way you could suggest otherwise is if you include all state decisions led by secular Western governments that lead to war/deaths as acts taken in the name of/motivated directly by Christianity. Which would be absurd.

But that seems to be what you're doing. Staggeringly so.

Muslims not killing in the name of Islam/motivated by their religious beliefs to violence, aren't in the equation either.

In other words, if Jordan went to war with Kuwait due to a political dispute over oil for example, Islam wouldn't be culpable. Hope this helps.
 
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