Attacks in Paris

[coleridge]

Good I hope this time they see it through and finish this.

George Bush Senior allowed the Republican Guard to escape and we have been fighting them ever since

I am a pacifist by instinct. However, I agree with the above although I know that many innocent civilians will be killed, even as I type. Very sad and sobering times.

 

[urban genie]

CNN reporting Raqqa getting bombed the shit out of it just now and is rumoured to be mainly french jets

 

[EalingBlue2]

Thanks
The problem appears to be that certain posters on here refuse to admit and accept the simple fact that Brainwashed Muslim extremists cannot be negotiated with and there is no civilized way to bring them into line. The only way to deal with these people is to Kill the fighters at every opportunity and Fight the hate preachers with the full strength of the law We may even have to pass much more draconian laws to deal with them. We also need to accept the fact you will probably be classed a racists in doing so. Some Muslims are hell bent on destroying our way of life and we need to take off the kid gloves and fight fire with fire.

I am willing to accept my own privacy may be lost and it is a small price to pay if we can make the world a safer place.

I can honestly say I have never seen a post on Bluemoon taking about negotiating with ISIS I would love to know who these posters are. Once radicalised these people have to be killed or captured, the threat from them has to be eliminated and we have to destroy their networks, camps, weapons.

but as has been shown by the last 15 years this will count for nothing if we don't also do something to stop their funding (including coming down hard on our allies from where much of it comes). It will count for nothing if we don't defeat their ideas by denying them Islam to hide behind. Unless we cut off the head of the Caliphate and if we don't destroy the roots and seeds.

We need to fight fire with fire yes but not fire alone as it doesn't work, we also have to deny oxygen to the fire, we need water on the fire and we need to remove the flammable material.

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

There are around 400 people in the UK who have returned from Syria. I think it's fair to say that some of them are less friendly than they claim to be. Now multiply that across Europe. And that's just the ones we know about!

Is it likely to be a bit harder to get the Paris level of weaponry into this country?

I would imagine these people are being watched like hawks but I suppose that would take some doing 24/7.

 

[cleavers]

It's perfectly plausible from my perspective, and your position seems to be borne out of wishful thinking, frankly.

We'll agree to disagree then, I could say your argument is also "wishful thinking", as you seem to be very anti "refugee". I gave the reasons why I think its unlikely earlier, I'm not repeating them, and also that is it was "imho".

Why would there need to be long planning ? Well you need to know that these targets could easily be attacked, traffic for instance could mean, that they couldn't get there, so I'm sure there were a number of dummy runs, everyone knowing their job once they got there, that access to the concert hall was easy, no point going there if it was hard to get in, even with automatic weapons, are there regular police patrols ?

Its called military planning, and while we might not like it, Islamic State are a military organisation, and a f*ck up would not be in their interest.

 

[Balti]

CNN reporting Raqqa getting bombed the shit out of it just now and is rumoured to be mainly french jets

Good. Just a start hopefully. UK needs to bomb them as well. And then boots on the ground. Kill as many of the cowardly cockroaches as we can. It's a war that won't end but lets get stuck in properly.

Looks like anti-immigration public opinion is gathering pace:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/107516

 

[BlueBearBoots]

CNN reporting Raqqa getting bombed the shit out of it just now and is rumoured to be mainly french jets

Should be English and USA forces joining in standing shoulder to shoulder with the French

 

[cleavers]

Thanks
The problem appears to be that certain posters on here refuse to admit and accept the simple fact that Brainwashed Muslim extremists cannot be negotiated with and there is no civilized way to bring them into line. The only way to deal with these people is to Kill the fighters at every opportunity and Fight the hate preachers with the full strength of the law We may even have to pass much more draconian laws to deal with them. We also need to accept the fact you will probably be classed a racists in doing so. Some Muslims are hell bent on destroying our way of life and we need to take off the kid gloves and fight fire with fire.

I am willing to accept my own privacy may be lost and it is a small price to pay if we can make the world a safer place.

As unpalatable as that all is, I tend to agree with it, however it probably won't seriously affect the likes of me and you, since we don't have anything to hide, they will just target more, those they already know about, with more draconian measures, the liberals won't like it of course, and it probably still won't prevent the odd attack either, sadly.

 

[whp.blue]

I can honestly say I have never seen a post on Bluemoon taking about negotiating with ISIS I would love to know who these posters are. Once radicalised these people have to be killed or captured, the threat from them has to be eliminated and we have to destroy their networks, camps, weapons.

but as has been shown by the last 15 years this will count for nothing if we don't also do something to stop their funding (including coming down hard on our allies from where much of it comes). It will count for nothing if we don't defeat their ideas by denying them Islam to hide behind. Unless we cut off the head of the Caliphate and if we don't destroy the roots and seeds.

We need to fight fire with fire yes but not fire alone as it doesn't work, we also have to deny oxygen to the fire, we need water on the fire and we need to remove the flammable material.

There was one just a few pages back ISIS were compared to the IRA and it was stated ISIS will be brought to the negotiating table at some point .

Removing the flammable material may mean curtailing the rights of Muslims and clamping down on Mosques that are still being used for radicaialisation that will not go down well.
We need to face facts that the teachings in the Koran are not fully compatable with world peace and harmony. Any religion that puts itself above the law should not be tolerated many Muslims follow the laws of the koran before national and international law and that cannot be allowed to continue.

 

[EalingBlue2]

We'll agree to disagree then, I could say your argument is also "wishful thinking", as you seem to be very anti "refugee". I gave the reasons why I think its unlikely earlier, I'm not repeating them, and also that is it was "imho".

Why would there need to be long planning ? Well you need to know that these targets could easily be attacked, traffic for instance could mean, that they couldn't get there, so I'm sure there were a number of dummy runs, everyone knowing their job once they got there, that access to the concert hall was easy, no point going there if it was hard to get in, even with automatic weapons, are there regular police patrols ?

Its called military planning, and while we might not like it, Islamic State are a military organisation, and a f*ck up would not be in their interest.

There is a deep philosophical question behind it all do you believe in guilty until proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty. Both philosophies have weakness and pose dangers - it is one of the deepest divides between liberalism and authoritarianism .

As for the planning point - it is good planning that is needed not long planning, long planning is dangerous in that it opens up much greater chances of leaks or being traced . We have to act as if these are not long cycle operations but highly trained ones and not be complacent that we have months of planning to infiltrate

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

CNN reporting Raqqa getting bombed the shit out of it just now and is rumoured to be mainly french jets

They are saying that a command post and training camp have been destroyed. Have they only just noticed these or something? Why haven't they already been destroyed along with the ISiS command centre that was 20 yards from where JJ met his maker(or hellfire missile in his case)

 

[I'm no cynic but...]

So what should be done with these brainwashed fanatics. Blast them off the planet and risk a whole new army flocking to their cause, or do we lock them away in another Guantanamo camp for years of abuse and in doing so risking the anger of Muslims the world over? I just can't see the end of a problem that goes back to at least The Crusades.

 

[EalingBlue2]

There was one just a few pages back ISIS were compared to the IRA and it was stated ISIS will be brought to the negotiating table at some point .

Removing the flammable material may mean curtailing the rights of Muslims and clamping down on Mosques that are still being used for radicaialisation that will not go down well.
We need to face facts that the teachings in the Koran are not fully compatable with world peace and harmony. Any religion that puts itself above the law should not be tolerated many Muslims follow the laws of the koran before national and international law and that cannot be allowed to continue.

I know lots of people who choose to break laws that pose danger to people atheists , Muslims , Christians or whatever and if laws are broken they should be punished for that law, being it choosing to drive at 60 through a school zone and endangering my kids or be it giving someone 20 lashes for adultery. I make this comparison deliberately as the latter poses far more danger to my kids and I see it every day. The law is the law and if people break it they do so at risk of prosecution - so in that sense I don't disagree. If preachers (mosques are buildings they can do nothing) are inciting people to commit a criminal act then they should be charged . But as has been proved for hundreds of years blankety punishing whole communities for the crimes of a few will always fail and is just people pretending to act bravely because they don't have the patience or courage to deal with the real problems.

As for the IRA comparison they had a lot more to lose and so were open to negotiation - but I don't see that from IsIS ever being possible. That said an IRA , UDA, ISIS or whoever it is who kills an innocent is all one and the same a Murderer simple as .

 

[Robinho's Subbuteo]

So what should be done with these brainwashed fanatics. Blast them off the planet and risk a whole new army flocking to their cause, or do we lock them away in another Guantanamo camp for years of abuse and in doing so risking the anger of Muslims the world over? I just can't see the end of a problem that goes back to at least The Crusades.

Not sure that would anger Muslims the world over as they have said that ISIS are not 'true' Muslims.

 

[whp.blue]

There is a deep philosophical question behind it all do you believe in guilty until proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty. Both philosophies have weakness and pose dangers - it is one of the deepest divides between liberalism and authoritarianism .

In the coming weeks and months I feel it will be more apt to philosophise over Guilt by association as this may be used more in the war against terror.
People using mosques that are found guilty of preaching hate could and should be prosecuted under the joint enterprise laws.

 

[TonyM]

Let's see if there's any EU policy changes if Germany is attacked at the same scale as Britain, France or Spain. Open borders won't last long then I suspect.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

Your point about inadequate border controls around these refugees is one I largely agree with and certainly appears to be accurate. Once in, they're then largely free to move wherever they want.

But as I said earlier in the thread, the camp at Sangatte has been there since 1999, long before this problem erupted or was even foreseen so it isn't a new problem. We have been complacent and should have had a better system in place, either just across the Syrian borders or in Greece, to hold and process these people properly. But that's a side issue to a large degree and doesn't answer the issue of how EU nationals have been radicalised to an extreme degree. No border controls would have stopped our own 7/7 bombers or the killers of Lee Rigby.

There's a good article in The Guardian that explains better than I could why we shouldn't be jumping to too many conclusions over this passport. But it contains a theme that I've been pushing on here, which is that ISIS would love to cause a backlash against refugees.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ris-attack-scene-must-be-treated-with-caution

I agree to an extent, like you said, we'd still have a problem with this ideology inspiring people at home. But from my perspective the less people you have at home who are viable and susceptible to being 'inspired' by such ideology the better.

My concerns are not limited to just terrorism and IS, but also to straightforward cultural and social issues like the willing self segregation of many Muslim communities in Western Europe whom often reject their host nation's values.

Luton here for example, and some suburbs of Paris also, for example. Malmo in Southern Sweden is another prominent example.

This is a growing problem in the EU, and it's insular and self segregated communities like this which extremists usually hail from. As the attacks were breaking out on Friday night Sky interviewed an off duty French police officer who was in the stadium as the attacks were unfolding, and he said they were not surprised by the attacks, and he was sure there'd be French nationals among the attackers - as its since proven. He said there was a growing problem in France of Muslim communities segregating themselves in cities like Paris. He said many hate their (the French) guts, and with that France. This is an uncomfortable topic for many people but it's a very serious issue, that needs addressing.

It's a topic that needs to be taken away from far right parties and to be discussed by centre left and right majority, rather than being ignored and hoping it solves itself.

How will the EU ensure that the sheer number of refugees entering the EU will be successfully integrated into their host countries?

I want us to help, but I think we should be cautious about the practicalities of taking so many people. I think we should also push for more Arab nations to do their bit and accept refugees, not a single refugee has been accepted by a UAE state last time I checked for example. The Saudis have done nothing, and they're central to the funding of the wars that are actually displacing these people.

The EU's borders should have never been flung open in the manner they were, with Merkel's lead. It was wholly irresponsible and has sent out a message that Europe's front door is open and anyone who can make the trip and arrive will be afforded refuge. This has led to an unprecedented number of people making the journey, only 20% of whom are actually even Syrian at the last check.

Besides the very real security threat, we have to be wary of the social problems integrating such a large number of people will bring. And the economic cost to house and feed them, and to deport the thousands upon thousands who don't meet meet the criteria for asylum.

One thing I will say though, is that I don't think that we should base something as integral to our states as the control of our borders around what IS may or may not want. Fuck them.

If we decide to tighten up border controls and be stricter in granting asylum, then it has to be because it's best for us. Rather than what IS wants.

If we decide to make the process more formal but still be welcoming it cannot be just because we want to go against the wishes of IS, in an attempt to show how progressive we are, while ignoring all the practical issues that come with such a mass integration of people from another culture.

We have to make such choices on our terms, and the people of Europe must be consulted.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Good. Just a start hopefully. UK needs to bomb them as well. And then boots on the ground. Kill as many of the cowardly cockroaches as we can. It's a war that won't end but lets get stuck in properly.

Looks like anti-immigration public opinion is gathering pace:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/107516

Sadly as Mosely proved in the 30's there is a big appeal in dealing with fascism by becoming fascist ourselves. By selling out Liberal values that define our society and we have fought for centuries to nurture and protect. I just hope Britain can again find a Churchill to stop the enemy within gaining power from the enemy without. It is though not easy to be true to values and defeat a powerful enemy.

I am not saying that immigration should be open borders and not subject to appropriate controls - just saying it saddens me how delighted the hard right seem to be that this attack increases fear and is a wonderful tool to boost their cause.

 

[Benarbia_is_god]

http://isis.liveuamap.com/

This site had the reports marked earlier that a lot of drones were circling.

Great site mate, thanks for sharing!

 

[cleavers]

As for the planning point - it is good planning that is needed not long planning, long planning is dangerous in that it opens up much greater chances of leaks or being traced . We have to act as if these are not long cycle operations but highly trained ones and not be complacent that we have months of planning to infiltrate

It wouldn't be a few short weeks planning anyway, these will have been their equivalent of "SF", very well trained operatives, they won't have mock up version of Paris to train on, so they will have been scouting the areas for a while, to ensure good access, check on security, check on the type of 'target' available on a Friday evening (it wasn't a random day they chose to do it), then probably a few trial runs to check all eventualities.