Attacks in Paris

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

It's absolutely certain that there will be such people in the EU right now from said open border policy from Merkel. Just a question of how many.

Hopefully the security services will intercept them before they commit any further atrocities on European soil.

completely agree with you. they really need to tighten up on security on borders, the lack of checks is worrying.

 

[cleavers]

Mate, there's no way of knowing what their plan did or didn't include, you're speculating.

I didn't infer it was anything else, but the probability of someone getting there via this method is pretty small, given the variabilities involved.

 

[Utter bobbins]

It may already be too late there could be dozens of trained terror cells already in the EU. It was crazy to allow these refugees into Europe unchecked the German government have a lot to answer for. Merkel should be brought to book for her Cavalier attitude to Border Safety.

There probably are dozens of sleeping terror cells in Europe

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

You seem to make a habit of sneeringly dismissing any points that challenge your somewhat pompous and opinionated views and forcing those same views on the rest of us.

It's not beside the point at all but is a completely different point to the one you're making. Even if everything was hunky-dory in Syria, terrorists with false documents could legally enter Europe. Or illegally enter if necessary. There are some border controls in place around EU borders and genuine refugees are being processed. But there are many who are being smuggled in and no amount of border controls can prevent that.

Mate, you're misunderstanding me. That wasn't my intention, I didn't mean to dismiss your opinion.

I was simply saying that this is discussion we should have been having prior to the attacks, from my perspective you can remove the passport question out of the equation, we know this is a threat irrespective of that.

That was my only point. I was simply making a different point, I wasn't trying to dismiss yours'.

More than a million people have already passed through the EU without adequate border checks. It will take years to process them, some will vanish and never be processed. That is something which should have never been allowed to happen.

You're right to point out that this will still be a problem with greater border controls, but on several orders of magnitude smaller.

 

[cleavers]

There probably are dozens of sleeping terror cells in Europe

Mostly home grown I would think, luckily we have far superior terrorist intelligence here, so the risk of an attack succeeding is lower, but not in anyway nil, which is why we are as a country at "severe" meaning an attack is likely.

Preventing the attack is key, and right now there will be plenty of people keeping tabs on those likely to be planning one like this. The attack on Lee Rigby was an oportunist attack we'll never stop those, but good intelligence can prevent major attacks (and already has).

 

[Benarbia_is_god]

Of course it didn't, precisely what I said. The passport is a complete red herring imho, whoever planned this wanted it found, to add extra terror to the whole thing, quite a simple thing to do I would think.

Do you seriously think this "lone wolf" turned up and knocked on a few doors in Brussels, in the hope there was an op he could join ?

Apologies I thought you were dismissing the idea that he was a refugee entirely.

No but I imagine there are ways one could meet up with like minded people, after all the early indications are that some of them are from Belgium, others recent arrivals and another one born in Paris. There must be somewhere they are meeting because like you said they won't be knocking on doors in Brussels.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

You're actually agreeing with him as far as I can see. Cleavers is saying that this attack was largely home-grown and the fact it might or might not have included recent refugees is neither here nor there.

Homegrown fighters who were very well trained and armed, clearly.

My opportunity to speculate now, but from my perspective they must have travelled from France to join IS in Iraq/Syria, and been trained and engaged in combat - before returning undetected, possibly posing as refugees, with a native Syrian, to plan an attack in Paris weeks/months later.

That is the most plausible explanation of events based upon the information we hold currently.

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

Turkey reporting they stopped a similar attack on Istanbul on the same day.

Do the French security services need more help? It seems to be one attack after another there or is it just to big a job for them. Do the Belgian security forces need to be doing more?

On another point I saw an illustrated picture today of the attack on Jihadi John in Syria. It labelled a building as ISIS headquarters. Why is that being allowed to stand? Are there civilians in it?

 

[Utter bobbins]

Mostly home grown I would think, luckily we have far superior terrorist intelligence here, so the risk of an attack succeeding is lower, but not in anyway nil, which is why we are as a country at "severe" meaning an attack is likely.

Preventing the attack is key, and right now there will be plenty of people keeping tabs on those likely to be planning one like this. The attack on Lee Rigby was an oportunist attack we'll never stop those, but good intelligence can prevent major attacks (and already has).

The news inferred that the French have not been or got the ability or go ahead from their govt to monitor chatter

 

[Gelsons Dad]

There probably are dozens of sleeping terror cells in Europe

There are around 400 people in the UK who have returned from Syria. I think it's fair to say that some of them are less friendly than they claim to be. Now multiply that across Europe. And that's just the ones we know about!

 

[Utter bobbins]

Homegrown fighters who were very well trained and armed, clearly.

My opportunity to speculate now, but from my perspective they must have travelled from France to join IS in Iraq/Syria, and been trained and engaged in combat - before returning undetected, possibly posing as refugees, with a native Syrian, to plan an attack in Paris weeks/months later.

That is the most plausible explanation of events based upon the information we hold currently.

There are terrorist trying camps all over the world they didn't have to go to Syria Iraq, many IS fighters are the elite national guard from Iraq

 

[M18CTID]

How many suicide attacks did the IRA ever commit?

There is no comparison to be made between ISIS mentality and that of the IRA who share conventional western mindset even though they were prepared to commit acts of terror to win their goals.
and the extremists of today have very little in common with 12th century muslims

I think you and GDM have got this spot on. There is no real comparison between the IRA and ISIS - as abhorrent as their crimes were, the fact that they weren't suicide bombers meant that, however unpalatable it seemed to some, negotiation with the IRA was always a possibility. Compare that to ISIS - if their members are so determined to kill themselves in these terrorist attacks then they clearly aren't going to give a shit about all the innocent lives they take. How the hell can we negotiate with people that have that mindset?

 

[cleavers]

My opportunity to speculate now, but from my perspective they must have travelled to join IS in Iraq/Syria, and been trained and engaged in combat -before returning undetected, possibly posing as refugees, with a native Syrian, to plan an attack in Paris weeks/months later.

Or they could fly to Algeria, Morroco, Abu Dhabi even, then onward to whatever training they get, coming back the same way, on their own passport (or more likley a forged one), these are easy moves, especially if you are only a petty criminal, never even been in prison.

My point is/was that there are much less risky ways of "getting in" than the "hiding" in refugee boats.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but the time scale from October 3rd is too small, this had been planned for months, and judging from its clinical operation, there weren't late additions to the crew.

Only one of those targets on Friday were well known, and would be considered high profile, the others all soft, and easy, where maximum casualties would be gained before there could be any reaction, and I'm pretty sure they were carefully selected, and scouted, because of the very people who went there, ordinary every day folk, in ordinary local bars and cafe's, who are a better target to these terrorists, because of the terror factor. Even the football stadium plan, which sounds like it went wrong luckily, was going after ordinary every day folk, not high profile targets.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Mate, you're misunderstanding me. That wasn't my intention, I didn't mean to dismiss your opinion.

I was simply saying that this is discussion we should have been having prior to the attacks, from my perspective you can remove the passport question out of the equation, we know this is a threat irrespective of that.

That was my only point. I was simply making a different point, I wasn't trying to dismiss yours'.

More than a million people have already passed through the EU without adequate border checks. It will take years to process them, some will vanish and never be processed. That is something which should have never been allowed to happen.

You're right to point out that this will still be a problem with greater border controls, but on several orders of magnitude smaller.

Your point about inadequate border controls around these refugees is one I largely agree with and certainly appears to be accurate. Once in, they're then largely free to move wherever they want.

But as I said earlier in the thread, the camp at Sangatte has been there since 1999, long before this problem erupted or was even foreseen so it isn't a new problem. We have been complacent and should have had a better system in place, either just across the Syrian borders or in Greece, to hold and process these people properly. But that's a side issue to a large degree and doesn't answer the issue of how EU nationals have been radicalised to an extreme degree. No border controls would have stopped our own 7/7 bombers or the killers of Lee Rigby.

There's a good article in The Guardian that explains better than I could why we shouldn't be jumping to too many conclusions over this passport. But it contains a theme that I've been pushing on here, which is that ISIS would love to cause a backlash against refugees.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ris-attack-scene-must-be-treated-with-caution

 

[whp.blue]

I think you and GDM have got this spot on. There is no real comparison between the IRA and ISIS - as abhorrent as their crimes were, the fact that they weren't suicide bombers meant that, however unpalatable it seemed to some, negotiation with the IRA was always a possibility. Compare that to ISIS - if their members are so determined to kill themselves in these terrorist attacks then they clearly aren't going to give a shit about all the innocent lives they take. How the hell can we negotiate with people that have that mindset?

Thanks
The problem appears to be that certain posters on here refuse to admit and accept the simple fact that Brainwashed Muslim extremists cannot be negotiated with and there is no civilized way to bring them into line. The only way to deal with these people is to Kill the fighters at every opportunity and Fight the hate preachers with the full strength of the law We may even have to pass much more draconian laws to deal with them. We also need to accept the fact you will probably be classed a racists in doing so. Some Muslims are hell bent on destroying our way of life and we need to take off the kid gloves and fight fire with fire.

I am willing to accept my own privacy may be lost and it is a small price to pay if we can make the world a safer place.

 

[Benarbia_is_god]

Reading on twitter that Raqqa is currently being bombed to shit.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

Or they could fly to Algeria, Morroco, Abu Dhabi even, then onward to whatever training they get, coming back the same way, on their own passport (or more likley a forged one), these are easy moves, especially if you are only a petty criminal, never even been in prison.

My point is/was that there are much less risky ways of "getting in" than the "hiding in refugee" boats.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but the time scale from October 3rd is too small, this had been planned for months, and judging from its clinical operation, there weren't late additions to the crew.

Only one of those targets on Friday were well known, and would be considered high profile, the others all soft, and easy, where maximum casualties would be gained before there could be any reaction, and I'm pretty sure they were carefully selected, and scouted, because of the very people who went there, ordinary every day folk, in ordinary local bars and cafe's, who are a better target to these terrorists, because of the terror factor. Even the football stadium plan, which sounds like it went wrong luckily, was going after ordinary every day folk, not high profile targets.

Of course, they're somewhat plausible, but how would you explain the possibility of a Syrian being among them unless they travelled back together? That's the greatest likelihood from my perspective.

The French nationals could've been fighting in Syria/Iraq for months or even years, only to return recently when they got the nod that an attack had been planned by sleeper cells in the EU and they'd been chosen to be the attackers, for example.

There's no way of knowing that the time scale is too small for them to have been among the recent mass migration of people, you cannot definitively say that. We can only speculate on the feasibility of the time to plan such an attack, and there's every possibility that the plan may have already been in place for a while, and just required willing fighters with the required combat experience to pull it off.

Only one of those targets on Friday were well known, and would be considered high profile, the others all soft, and easy, where maximum casualties would be gained before there could be any reaction, and I'm pretty sure they were carefully selected, and scouted, because of the very people who went there, ordinary every day folk, in ordinary local bars and cafe's, who are a better target to these terrorists, because of the terror factor. Even the football stadium plan, which sounds like it went wrong luckily, was going after ordinary every day folk, not high profile targets.

Precisely. They were straightforward soft targets, which were crowded and easy to hit. What makes you think an attack like that would take a lengthy master plan to pull off?

It was clearly well organised but there were no specific individual targets, just to indiscriminately kill as many French civilians as possible and ensure a high body count.

I can't see where you're coming from in deducing that it would've been impossible for the attackers to have been among the recent wave of migration. It's perfectly plausible from my perspective, and your position seems to be borne out of wishful thinking, frankly.

 

[whp.blue]

Reading on twitter that Raqqa is currently being bombed to shit.

Good I hope this time they see it through and finish this.

George Bush Senior allowed the Republican Guard to escape and we have been fighting them ever since

 

[TCIB]

Reading on twitter that Raqqa is currently being bombed to shit.

http://isis.liveuamap.com/

This site had the reports marked earlier that a lot of drones were circling.

 

[coleridge]

Both the IRA and the loyalist paramilitaries are fascist gangsters. They have agreed over time whatever suited their own political and financial agendas. I always find the exercise in comparing evil quite distasteful. For me, some governments act in a similar fashion, such as Russia, Israel, Saudi and India. Sometimes you have to hold your moral nose.

Anyway, turning to ISIS, sadly, I know the mentality all too well. There is no negotiating with them. Ever. They would only take it as a sign of weakness. The only answer is to wipe them out. I fail to see how this achievable without boots on the ground. In the end, I expect Iraq to be divided between Kurdish [and so CIA] and Iranian control. I then expect Syria to be Russian by the coast [i.e., their naval base] and around Damascus [Assad being exiled in Moscow] and French/US/UK controlled elsewhere. Give it a couple of years. All will become clear.