Attacks in Paris

[BimboBob]

The bit I don't get about the Stade de France attacks was why weren't they in there with the crowd if they wanted maximum carnage? It seemed a well planned raid could they not get tickets and go in wearing their vest bombs or was there airport style x-ray machines on the turnstiles? I mean it seems a bit lame to blow yourself up outside at the gates with almost no-one around? They surely didn't think the 3 of them could storm the stadium and get to Hollande did they???

One had a ticket. The plan was to get in, detonate, and then the one outside would get the one's escaping.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

My only objection was to regarding ISIS as "true Muslims" and "true followers of the Qur'an", thereby making the majority of people like me (who pray for their destruction) some kind of "fake Muslims".

I'm just summarising the article and to them, you are "fake muslims". Anyone who doesn't follow their narrow, extreme & literal view is, in their eyes, an enemy, even their fellow Sunni.

 

[bluethrunthru]

From what I've read they had tickets. They got turned back by a routine security check at which time they backed off. Then blew themselves up, killing one member of the public in total from this attack (plus themzelves). Apologies if that's wrong, but it seems their intention was to detonate from inside the stadium.

The security guard who searched him and managed to stay alive himself is a fucking hero, imo. (If my info is correct).

Makes sense - I had heard about the security guard - made the news because he is a Muslim - like thats important - were he a Jew are we to assume he would have waved the bombers through? The press is fucked up !!

 

[bluethrunthru]

One had a ticket. The plan was to get in, detonate, and then the one outside would get the one's escaping.

Thankfully that part of the plan failed then

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Makes sense - I had heard about the security guard - made the news because he is a Muslim - like thats important - were he a Jew are we to assume he would have waved the bombers through? The press is fucked up !!

The guy who spoke to the press was a Muslim but he wasn't the guard that did the search. He was in the tunnel where the press were. However, his religion is irrelevant.

 

[coleridge]

And we might as well sell / give them arms coz if we don't somebody else will?

Fucking depressing excuse that isn't it?

That's reality. Not an excuse. As you say, it's 'fucking depressing'.

 

[coleridge]

You are such a flirt.

Such jealousy in one so young[ish].

 

[Why Always Ste]

Anonymous releasing info declaring war on ISIS, saying how they will Ddos attack ISIS websites and al that jazz such as changing a Twitter Profile Picture...Wow how gangster!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Make no mistake: <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Anonymous?src=hash">#Anonymous</a> is at war with <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Daesh?src=hash">#Daesh</a>. We won&#39;t stop opposing <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/IslamicState?src=hash">#IslamicState</a>. We&#39;re also better hackers. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OpISIS?src=hash">#OpISIS</a></p>&mdash; Anonymous (@GroupAnon) <a href="">November 15, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm just thinking - their actions will only just give more publicity to the likes of ISIS, as this is what they really want anyway.
Just one big Extremist sect. of Islam PR Machine.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Such jealousy in one so young[ish].

I'm a lot older than I look.

 

[coleridge]

Here's another long but very interesting piece on the nature of ISIS and their beliefs. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Basically it says:

• They offer a strict interpretation of the Koran so saying "they are not true Muslims" is far from the truth. The whole point is that no one can say hat they are doing is un-Islamic as it's all based on the Koran.
  
• Unlike Al Qaeda, which can operate underground, they require territory in order to be able to implement their extreme and literal interpretation of the Koran. They have to provide a safe haven in which to implement their religious philosophy.
  
• Having established that, they are likely to move on to more aggressive, expansionary acts (this was written before Paris so is very prescient). We can expect more of the same.
• They are actively seeking a confrontation with what they call the forces of Rome. They believe this will herald the End of Days, following initial setbacks.
• Losing their territory will be a huge blow but it's probably very unwise to put in loads of foreign troops to do that as that suits them very nicely and even gives weight to Koranic prophecies. The least bad option is a slow and steady erosion of their existing areas of control, even though that might mean further atrocities.

What they are doing is un-Islamic. Feel free to join me at Victoria Park Mosque on Friday where the Imam will undoubtedly say the same. You are better than this political positioning, my friend.

 

[Tricky_Trev]

Anonymous releasing info declaring war on ISIS, saying how they will Ddos attack ISIS websites and al that jazz such as changing a Twitter Profile Picture...Wow how gangster!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Make no mistake: <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Anonymous?src=hash">#Anonymous</a> is at war with <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Daesh?src=hash">#Daesh</a>. We won&#39;t stop opposing <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/IslamicState?src=hash">#IslamicState</a>. We&#39;re also better hackers. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OpISIS?src=hash">#OpISIS</a></p>&mdash; Anonymous (@GroupAnon) <a href="">November 15, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm just thinking - their actions will only just give more publicity to the likes of ISIS, as this is what they really want anyway.
Just one big Extremist sect. of Islam PR Machine.

Surely any social media apps they use to communicate are apps outside of the western ones? Really don't see how reporting a few Twitter accounts achieves anything in any way. Anonymous should probably get back on their Playstations and play Fallout or something.

 

[coleridge]

Anyway, this is a very interesting thread which I wish I had more time to devote to.

For now, one point that I want to pick up is this constant use of the term 'Sunni'. This is too broad. We are talking about Arab Sunnis from Arabia, Iraq and the Levant [the narrow definition].

The largest Sunni countries, with the three largest Muslim Armies, are Turkey, Pakistan and Indonesia. Their cultural and ethnic connection to the aforesaid Arabs is virtually zero.

 

[bucks]

So the cops raided 168 places in France and Belgium between Friday night and Sunday night, finding guns, suspects and even a fucking rocket launcher. Now I don't believe all those properties were identified after Friday night, they must already have been on the cops radar. So why weren't they already raided? I would suggest it was because that would have upset a few peoples sense of civil rights and liberty. Now of course the gloves are off and they can raid who the fuck they want. Well I've got news for them, IT'S TOO FUCKING LATE, 129 INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE DEAD. So may I suggest you keep the gloves off, your president has declared war on these cunts and if a few peoples precious sensibilities get bruised in the process tough shit. You might even save some lives, you've had enough warnings for fucks sake. And if Ms Chakrabati starts sounding off I will gladly volounteer to shut her up permanently. Fucking fuming.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

What they are doing is un-Islamic. Feel free to join me at Victoria Park Mosque on Friday where the Imam will undoubtedly say the same. You are better than this political positioning, my friend.

I'm not indulging in political positioning but putting their view of the world (not that I sympathise with it in any way.) In fact it's people saying they are un-Islamic who are hiding from the truth and I'll explain why.

I know relatively little of Islam but from my experience of the Jewish community I can see the development of religious philosophy in that community and the parallels. Thousands of years ago, they sacrificed animals, kept slaves and maintained a code of laws that would seem cruel and alien to us. But the world moved on and the religious code adapted. So things that weren't seen as relevant in the modern world were replaced by symbolism or different interpretations, in order to avoid offending local sensibilities. In the ultra-orthodox Jewish world, there are detailed and hair-splitting interpretations of passages and even individual words in the Talmud. Certain groups follow different interpretations and I know of one person who divorced his wife because his and her respective interpretations of various laws were incompatible. And we're not talking fundamental things like eating bacon but things that you or I would regard as utterly trivial. But both were deeply religious Jews. Similarly there are different groupings within Islam and it's not up to you to say who is or isn't un-Islamic because your view of Islam is a reflection of the community you live in.

There are Jewish communities living within a couple of miles of me who believe that the Old Testament is literally true, that the universe is less than 6,000 years old despite all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Similarly there are Muslims who believe every word of the Koran. Most don't put this into practice though and have moved with the times. But there are some fundamentals that most Muslims won't give up, in the same way that many Jews who live a generally unreligious life for most of the year will attend the synagogue on Yom Kippur. The point is that there are many ways one can follow a religion and there is room for interpretation.

As I understand the practice of Islam, one should always aspire to follow the lifestyle and life choices of the Prophet and ask the question "What would he have done in these circumstances". I've seen discussions about, for example, whether Muslims should celebrate birthdays and the answer is that there is no specific prohibition but it's not something Muhammed would have done. ISIS take a very literal view of the Koran, one that is unmoved by the passage of time and rejects any interpretation that seeks to do that or even the very concept of interpretation.

What they do may conflict heavily with modern traditions or interpretations but it's misleading to call it un-Islamic. It's a very strict application of core Islamic principles.

 

[coleridge]

So the cops raided 168 places in France and Belgium between Friday night and Sunday night, finding guns, suspects and even a fucking rocket launcher. Now I don't believe all those properties were identified after Friday night, they must already have been on the cops radar. So why weren't they already raided? I would suggest it was because that would have upset a few peoples sense of civil rights and liberty. Now of course the gloves are off and they can raid who the fuck they want. Well I've got news for them, IT'S TOO FUCKING LATE, 129 INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE DEAD. So may I suggest you keep the gloves off, your president has declared war on these cunts and if a few peoples precious sensibilities get bruised in the process tough shit. You might even save some lives, you've had enough warnings for fucks sake. And if Ms Chakrabati starts sounding off I will gladly volounteer to shut her up permanently. Fucking fuming.

You need to calm down. What Chakrabati says is what our fathers fought for, i.e., against Fascism and NOT to become another Fascist state.

 

[coleridge]

I'm not indulging in political positioning but putting their view of the world (not that I sympathise with it in any way.) In fact it's people saying they are un-Islamic who are hiding from the truth and I'll explain why.

I know relatively little of Islam but from my experience of the Jewish community I can see the development of religious philosophy in that community and the parallels. Thousands of years ago, they sacrificed animals, kept slaves and maintained a code of laws that would seem cruel and alien to us. But the world moved on and the religious code adapted. So things that weren't seen as relevant in the modern world were replaced by symbolism or different interpretations, in order to avoid offending local sensibilities. In the ultra-orthodox Jewish world, there are detailed and hair-splitting interpretations of passages and even individual words in the Talmud. Certain groups follow different interpretations and I know of one person who divorced his wife because his and her respective interpretations of various laws were incompatible. And we're not talking fundamental things like eating bacon but things that you or I would regard as utterly trivial. But both were deeply religious Jews. Similarly there are different groupings within Islam and it's not up to you to say who is or isn't un-Islamic because your view of Islam is a reflection of the community you live in.

There are Jewish communities living within a couple of miles of me who believe that the Old Testament is literally true, that the universe is less than 6,000 years old despite all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Similarly there are Muslims who believe every word of the Koran. Most don't put this into practice though and have moved with the times. But there are some fundamentals that most Muslims won't give up, in the same way that many Jews who live a generally unreligious life for most of the year will attend the synagogue on Yom Kippur. The point is that there are many ways one can follow a religion and there is room for interpretation.

As I understand the practice of Islam, one should always aspire to follow the lifestyle and life choices of the Prophet and ask the question "What would he have done in these circumstances". I've seen discussions about, for example, whether Muslims should celebrate birthdays and the answer is that there is no specific prohibition but it's not something Muhammed would have done. ISIS take a very literal view of the Koran, one that is unmoved by the passage of time and rejects any interpretation that seeks to do that or even the very concept of interpretation.

What they do may conflict heavily with modern traditions or interpretations but it's misleading to call it un-Islamic. It's a very strict application of core Islamic principles.

No. Murder is un-Islamic. Neither is there the corollary that you suggest that there is with Judaism. True Islam is the Ummah, the one nation under God. The emphasis on 'sects' and territory is a very Judeo-Christian interpretation. The current failure to understand Islam is quite apparent.

 

[Ducado]

From what I have read there are a lot of guns on the black market in France including assault rifles, but they are mainly used by drugs gangs, many have come down from the Balkans

 

[totallywired]

So the cops raided 168 places in France and Belgium between Friday night and Sunday night, finding guns, suspects and even a fucking rocket launcher. Now I don't believe all those properties were identified after Friday night, they must already have been on the cops radar. So why weren't they already raided? I would suggest it was because that would have upset a few peoples sense of civil rights and liberty. Now of course the gloves are off and they can raid who the fuck they want. Well I've got news for them, IT'S TOO FUCKING LATE, 129 INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE DEAD. So may I suggest you keep the gloves off, your president has declared war on these cunts and if a few peoples precious sensibilities get bruised in the process tough shit. You might even save some lives, you've had enough warnings for fucks sake. And if Ms Chakrabati starts sounding off I will gladly volounteer to shut her up permanently. Fucking fuming.

So you are against free speech then. Do you have a history of shutting women up?

 

[inchy14]

You're wrong, GCHQ in particular, has already recruited a significant number recently, and that won't include the new quota. We might be losing 'armed forces', but the new battle for the UK isn't an armed one, its an intelligence one.

Reading this thread it's a battle we've lost then............

 

[Gelsons Dad]

I'm not indulging in political positioning but putting their view of the world (not that I sympathise with it in any way.) In fact it's people saying they are un-Islamic who are hiding from the truth and I'll explain why.

I know relatively little of Islam but from my experience of the Jewish community I can see the development of religious philosophy in that community and the parallels. Thousands of years ago, they sacrificed animals, kept slaves and maintained a code of laws that would seem cruel and alien to us. But the world moved on and the religious code adapted. So things that weren't seen as relevant in the modern world were replaced by symbolism or different interpretations, in order to avoid offending local sensibilities. In the ultra-orthodox Jewish world, there are detailed and hair-splitting interpretations of passages and even individual words in the Talmud. Certain groups follow different interpretations and I know of one person who divorced his wife because his and her respective interpretations of various laws were incompatible. And we're not talking fundamental things like eating bacon but things that you or I would regard as utterly trivial. But both were deeply religious Jews. Similarly there are different groupings within Islam and it's not up to you to say who is or isn't un-Islamic because your view of Islam is a reflection of the community you live in.

There are Jewish communities living within a couple of miles of me who believe that the Old Testament is literally true, that the universe is less than 6,000 years old despite all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Similarly there are Muslims who believe every word of the Koran. Most don't put this into practice though and have moved with the times. But there are some fundamentals that most Muslims won't give up, in the same way that many Jews who live a generally unreligious life for most of the year will attend the synagogue on Yom Kippur. The point is that there are many ways one can follow a religion and there is room for interpretation.

As I understand the practice of Islam, one should always aspire to follow the lifestyle and life choices of the Prophet and ask the question "What would he have done in these circumstances". I've seen discussions about, for example, whether Muslims should celebrate birthdays and the answer is that there is no specific prohibition but it's not something Muhammed would have done. ISIS take a very literal view of the Koran, one that is unmoved by the passage of time and rejects any interpretation that seeks to do that or even the very concept of interpretation.

What they do may conflict heavily with modern traditions or interpretations but it's misleading to call it un-Islamic. It's a very strict application of core Islamic principles.

I agree with all of this. One of the biggest mistakes governments are making at the moment is trying to distance IS from Islam. No one is saying normal moderate Muslims are bad but when for example 27% of the UK Muslim population express some sympathy for the Charlie Hebdo attackers it is just plain ridiculous to claim the IS have nothing to do with Islam.
I've said it many times and will continue to do so. The answer to the current conflict is not to be found in the battlefield of Syria or Iraq. The answer is in the Mosques of all the towns in the free world where the Imams must preach a moderate interpretation of Islam which is compatible with western life and must campaign loudly against all the radical Islamic voices. The Muslim council of Britain issued a low key press statement after Fridays attack. They and all the Imams should have been all over the media condemning the atrocities.
We must contain IS but we must insist that Islam reforms itself. I have little faith that Islam will but it should be given the chance.


Thought I would add one of those annoying quotes just to finish off:
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire