Calling all Tories. Why do you Tory?

[meltonblue]

To buy an average house you need to be in the top ~10% of earners these days. Says it all

Either that or have the bank of mum and dad to help out.

 

[Ban-jani]

Either that or have the bank of mum and dad to help out.

I am top 10% and still had to stay with mother in law for a year and have family help with money, to do it in 12 months.

 

[meltonblue]

I am top 10% and still had to stay with mother in law for a year and have family help with money, to do it in 12 months.

Yep, I think it’s similar for a lot of people.

 

[metalblue]

I am top 10% and still had to stay with mother in law for a year and have family help with money, to do it in 12 months.

It’s crazy mate

 

[Gaylord du Bois]

Are Tories not allowed 50 inch TVs?

Only if they're not wall mounted.

 

[BobKowalski]

Hello Comrade!

Big government is often seen as unnecessary levels of pointless bureaucracy and excessive meddling.

WW2? No, big government would not have won the Battle of Britain and thus WW2 - scramble scramble scramble. Woooooah there, before you take off and meet the hun do you have form 5b filled out? Yes sir here you go. Sorry that needs to be in black ink. Big government wouldn’t have actually needed any of the information on form 5bIt’s entirely detrimental to efficiency and increases cost. This is not to say regulation is in itself bad.

The NHS is not what I would class as employment for the sake of it (mostly) at its heart is caring for the health of the population. Sure I dare say there are some jobs and levels of bureaucracy that aren’t required to achieve this and successive governments have failed to get to grips with this.

Individuals can build motorways, the M6 a case in point, in the same way governments do - through providing the funding to build them - but generally given the way roads are funded through vehicle tax it makes it a challenge and a business case (rather than say an environmental case for bypasses). Let’s remember our railways were private endeavours at the outset.

Birmingham is a great example of what big government - prosperous until Labour thought it could regulate the flow of jobs and money to other parts primarily in the North. Completely ignoring the geography of Birmingham. Now look at it, it took less than a decade to destroy that place.

Moving to the lowest bar is the lefts obsession with “fairness” - shut private schools! shut grammar schools! they scream, they are unfair do they never consider making state schools as good?

I absolutely do not think we should look after people through charity - although that does play a vital role in our system - it tends to be focused and local on its objectives. I’m no more supporting of small government than I am big government.

Lose this obsession with fairness and wealth redistribution (which we haven’t touched on) and I might well vote for them mate!

What is the issue with ‘fairness’ as a principle?

 

[Ban-jani]

What is the issue with ‘fairness’ as a principle?

Well the issue with trying to achieve equality so much, as is case in point with education, is often you end up not improving that which is at the lower end, rather you bring the upper end down to the level of the rubbish end.

Our education system is a joke and has got worse since this policy was introduced, and I say this as someone who’d never have gone to a private school.

 

[BobKowalski]

Now, skilled labour is very much a middle class income group, especially if you are self employed, as you’ve pointed out. Many of the working classes are now doing well for themselves and are bought into the capitalist system.

They have that now, as well as patriotism and the loathing of identity politics, in common with your upper middle class Tory, it’s why the left is now made up of a significant proportion of lower middle classes and students.

‘Patriotism’ is identity politics.

It would be more accurate to say loathing of identity politics they don't agree with, whereas identity politics they do agree with is positively received.

For example, ‘solid working class, patriotic, stands on own two feet, says it as it is, etc’ is identity politics in that you are grouping people that share a similar background and a set of cultural values including patriotism as defined by that group.

 

[BobKowalski]

Well the issue with trying to achieve equality so much, as is case in point with education, is often you end up not improving that which is at the lower end, rather you bring the upper end down to the level of the rubbish end.

Our education system is a joke and has got worse since this policy was introduced, and I say this as someone who’d never have gone to a private school.

The issue wasn’t ‘equality’, it was ‘fairness’.

What is the issue with fairness as a principle?

 

[Ban-jani]

‘Patriotism’ is identity politics.

It would be more accurate to say loathing of identity politics they don't agree with, whereas identity politics they do agree with is positively received.

For example, ‘solid working class, patriotic, stands on own two feet, says it as it is, etc’ is identity politics in that you are grouping people that share a similar background and a set of cultural values including patriotism as defined by that group.

I actually agree with you.

It’s a term often maligned but I guess I mean the “woke” identity politics version.

 

[Ban-jani]

The issue wasn’t ‘equality’, it was ‘fairness’.

What is the issue with fairness as a principle?

Because life never is fair, utopia isn’t achievable here on Earth and those societies that have tried it have resulted in millions of deaths.

You and I actually agree economically so we don’t have much to disagree about, we both support ethical capitalism.

The only difference is you want it globally, as a system and I want it more localised and focused on communities that inherit the specific tradition of that area.

Neither of us are wrong nor right, it’s just a preference.

 

[metalblue]

What is the issue with ‘fairness’ as a principle?

Because it’s a principle you can only achieve in a very limited scope. City have more money than Macclesfield, is that fair? My neighbour might earn more than me, is that fair? My mate did better at school than me, is that fair? Now someone doing the same job should get paid the same..so I’ll give you that one.

Life simply isn’t “fair” and you’ll never change it - someone will always feel slighted

 

[BobKowalski]

Because it’s a principle you can only achieve in a very limited scope. City have more money than Macclesfield, is that fair? My neighbour might earn more than me, is that fair? My mate did better at school than me, is that fair? Now someone doing the same job should get paid the same..so I’ll give you that one.

Life simply isn’t “fair” and you’ll never change it - someone will always feel slighted

If your neighbour can monetise a talent you do not posses that is not a ‘fairness’ issue. Denying your neighbour the chance to monetise that talent through circumstances of birth or opportunity is a ‘fairness’ issue.

I don’t care about the result. KDB is wealthier than me because he has a particular talent and that is fine. I equate fairness to mean ensuring the KDB’s and others have the opportunity to express and monetise that talent.

We may disagree on how we go about ensuring this ‘fairness’, but I don’t see how denying the principle of fairness helps. A society that maximises the talents of its people is surely a healthier and more productive one.

 

[metalblue]

If your neighbour can monetise a talent you do not posses that is not a ‘fairness’ issue. Denying your neighbour the chance to monetise that talent through circumstances of birth or opportunity is a ‘fairness’ issue.

I don’t care about the result. KDB is wealthier than me because he has a particular talent and that is fine. I equate fairness to mean ensuring the KDB’s and others have the opportunity to express and monetise that talent.

We may disagree on how we go about ensuring this ‘fairness’, but I don’t see how denying the principle of fairness helps. A society that maximises the talents of its people is surely a healthier and more productive one.

So based on the above how is it fair to remove private schools? I can afford to send my kid to a private school but others can’t. Well I’ve monetised my talents better than them so can afford to....so it is fair right?

 

[Ban-jani]

So based on the above how is it fair to remove private schools? I can afford to send my kid to a private school but others can’t. Well I’ve monetised my talents better than them so can afford to....so it is fair right?

The problem is, fair isn’t the best word, it’s incredibly subjective

 

[pirate]

For letting us poor people buy our council houses on the cheap in the early 80’s.
Forever in your debt Margaret..

which led directly to todays housing crisis

 

[meltonblue]

Because it’s a principle you can only achieve in a very limited scope. City have more money than Macclesfield, is that fair? My neighbour might earn more than me, is that fair? My mate did better at school than me, is that fair? Now someone doing the same job should get paid the same..so I’ll give you that one.

Life simply isn’t “fair” and you’ll never change it - someone will always feel slighted

For me it’s more it needs adjustment every now and again to make sure it doesn’t go too far out of control and too much wealth gets concentrated in too few.

 

[metalblue]

The problem is, fair isn’t the best word, it’s incredibly subjective

Exactly this - and then who decides what is and isn’t fair and how is that fair? Lovely idea in principle, shit idea in practice

 

[pirate]

i work hard
i run a business
i don't cadge
i don't have a 50 inch tv.
i don't want something for nothing .

so why does that make you a tory?
my daughter does all that and shes a labour voter

 

[Ban-jani]

For me it’s more it needs adjustment every now and again to make sure it doesn’t go too far out of control and too much wealth gets concentrated in too few.

Exactly my views. Capitalism is the best system, we just need to make it work for as many people as possible and all club in to help those left behind.

Making everything under one roof and trying to get salaries equal across the board is lunacy.