Cameron vetoes EU Treaty change

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Small c refers to a communist ideal where there is no state at all or even sections of communists who believe there should be no state. .

What an absurd and totally unrealistic notion. How is that ever going to happen when human beings are involved?

It would mean the ruling elite (Communist with a big 'C') voluntarily giving up power, which hasn't happened too often in human history. Let's be honest Karl Marx was a bit of a fucking dreamer.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Well they are communist. They run a free market system but try watch tv, state funded news, no freedom, no rights, no human rights.

How do you think China makes stuff so much cheaper than anyone else. They dont do it buy paying workers the legal minimum wage of £6 p/h

That would make them authoritarian not communist, and certainly not small-c communist - which they never were. Capitalism doesn't beget democracy or liberal rights - that's a liberal democracy and it has nothing much to do with capitalism. Most free-market ideologues don't even like democracy. I can quote the head of the Wall Street Journal on that.

Capital hates the minimum wage and it certainly doesn't fit into free-market notions.

-- Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:28 pm --

I've watch the students in their first 4 weeks of university life go through their military training 3 times now. Anyone who thinks the China is no a communist state is kidding themselves. How they chose to fund the apparatus is through exploitation of capitalist consumers and as such some of that culture does pervade daily life but when push comes to shove it is a single party state and that party is communist.

As above, it is you who are kidding yourself. You have been duped into thinking capitalism and liberal democracies are inseparable.

Not at all. You're deluded if you believe that communism as practiced rather than theorised is anything other than a clique driven dictatorship where the dictator is the state itself. I mentioned nothing about liberal democracies. I just stated that I have experience of how the Communist party still rules with an iron fist in china. Any money to be made is made by the state or those who will sponsor it. I've watched dozens of skyscrapers be built and demolished simply because someone wouldn't donate to the party. Ive seen the kids in complete poverty and squaller while the party hq in the village is gleaming with gold as a demonstration of state power. Ive seen the students who are lucky enough to go to university spend there first month dedication themselves to the service of the party which has graced them with the honour of education. This is the practical application of Communism that is referred to. And to say the China is not a communist state is to say that it and the USSR never were.

 

[Skashion]

Not at all. You're deluded if you believe that communism as practiced rather than theorised is anything other than a clique driven dictatorship where the dictator is the state itself. I mentioned nothing about liberal democracies.

I just stated that I have experience of how the Communist party still rules with an iron fist in china. Any money to be made is made by the state or those who will sponsor it. I've watched dozens of skyscrapers be built and demolished simply because someone wouldn't donate to the party. Ive seen the kids in complete poverty and squaller while the party hq in the village is gleaming with gold as a demonstration of state power. Ive seen the students who are lucky enough to go to university spend there first month dedication themselves to the service of the party which has graced them with the honour of education. This is the practical application of Communism that is referred to.

And to say the China is not a communist state is to say that it and the USSR never were.

That is not my contention and it does you no favours to pretend it was. Although I'd say the same for capitalism as I've never seen capitalism work out as free-market ideologues say it will.

You have first-hand experience of authoritarianism, well done. I've been to a 'communist' country too - by your definition. I'm just not simplistic enough to believe it is still communist because it remains authoritarian and undemocratic.

No, it isn't, and to say it is, is to fail to acknowledge the huge economic transformation the country has undergone.

I will never understand why people are unable to distinguish between an economy marked by capitalism with an undemocratic authoritarian government and a Communist one. The differences are quite vast and you can easily refer to practices allowed and statistics to find out which it is.

-- Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:47 pm --

Small c refers to a communist ideal where there is no state at all or even sections of communists who believe there should be no state. .

What an absurd and totally unrealistic notion. How is that ever going to happen when human beings are involved?

It would mean the ruling elite (Communist with a big 'C') voluntarily giving up power, which hasn't happened too often in human history. Let's be honest Karl Marx was a bit of a fucking dreamer.

Anarchy baby. It's the way forward.

Marx was a baby, baby.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

It was your contention that China was no longer a communist country. It is my contention that by the common definition of a communist country it is.

I would be interested to know which Communist country you think isn't capitalist with an undemocratic authoritarian government?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Anarchy baby. It's the way forward.

Marx was a baby, baby.

Ah I see. Anarchy.

And of course after that no-one will think they can do a better job of running their region/country or the whole world than everyone else, will they?

I imagine the people who organise the uprising will feel they deserve a chance. For the common good of course

Also Marx was not a baby. He was a Marxist. Baby.

 

[Skashion]

It was your contention that China was no longer a communist country. It is my contention that by the common definition of a communist country it is.

I would be interested to know which Communist country you think isn't capitalist with an undemocratic authoritarian government?

That is true and and I wholeheartedly endorse that opinion but not that one where you pretended I believed Communism hadn't resulted in dictatorship.

North Korea and Cuba would be about the only ones left standing but previously the USSR, China, Vietnam etc. Now, they've opened their doors to outsiders, allow those outsiders to extract profits from their workers, have ridden their commitment to inequality and some of them are now purposefully trying to increase inequality in order to increase economic incentives, much of the welfare system has been dismantled and unemployment has increased - not because there is less work to do, quite the opposite, but because it was previously made inefficient by commitment to full employment. Previously these countries had the commanding heights of industry under direct central control and were considered public sector, now they are not. I could go on but I feel I needn't. These countries have undergone economic transformations of an enormous magnitude.<br /><br />-- Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:06 pm --<br /><br />

Ah I see. Anarchy.

And of course after that no-one will think they can do a better job of running their region/country or the whole world than everyone else, will they?

I imagine the people who organise the uprising will feel they deserve a chance. For the common good of course

Also Marx was not a baby. He was a Marxist. Baby.

Those who believe that will be unpersons.

Unpersons can't organise uprisings.

Marx wasn't a Marxist baby.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Marx wasn't a Marxist baby.

Next you'll be saying that Jesus wasn't a Christian.

Baby ;-)

 

[Skashion]

Next you'll be saying that Jesus wasn't a Christian.

Baby ;-)

Don't let's be silly. Peter, the first Pope, was a rabbit though. How else do you explain the Pope's hat, baby?

 

[Ducado]

Back on topic!

There is a theroy that there was never a treaty to veto! Has anyone seen it? And if there was a treaty many countries would have to have had a referendum, many countries would have voted no!

So they go for an inter government agreement with no legal sanction! It was a ruse to try and fool the markets, and by looking at today's markets it's not worked, it's falling apart already, because many countries still value their independence.

It's not a matter of if the Euro implodes it's a matter of when it implodes, but we can not be smug here our own banking and economy sit on a knife edge as well.

Two huge banks (Commerzbank and Crédit Agricole) have been bailed out, there is certainley not enough money to bail them all out.

It's time for a global reset I am afraid, time to start again, when you think about it it's not real money they are talking about, it's number of a PC screen, there are hardly any assets to back it up.

 

[Rammy Blue]

Back on topic!

There is a theroy that there was never a treaty to veto! Has anyone seen it? And if there was a treaty many countries would have to have had a referendum, many countries would have voted no!

So they go for an inter government agreement with no legal sanction! It was a ruse to try and fool the markets, and by looking at today's markets it's not worked, it's falling apart already, because many countries still value their independence.

It's not a matter of if the Euro implodes it's a matter of when it implodes, but we can not be smug here our own banking and economy sit on a knife edge as well.

Two huge banks (Commerzbank and Crédit Agricole) have been bailed out, there is certainley not enough money to bail them all out.

It's time for a global reset I am afraid, time to start again, when you think about it it's not real money they are talking about, it's number of a PC screen, there are hardly any assets to back it up.

I won't quote my favourite phrase as Swp's will be here in a flash....

You're essentially right though pal, it's fucked.

God only knows where it's all going to end up but it isn't going to be pretty.