Cameron vetoes EU Treaty change

Balti said:
Bojinov The Bull said:
Balti said:
Good post. There was no other viable option. But whinging Ed just bleats on regardless. You did it. No you did it. No you did it etc ad infinitum. Yawn.

I wish for a revolution in English politics that would sweep these tired old parties away.

Definitely, couldnt agree more. Its too stale, its too old fashioned, its not really democracy anymore. You now have parties who can be voted in with a manifesto that they have no intention of sticking to and can just do whatever you want. You have parties just full of MP's getting their 80K a year in 'safe' Labour or Conservative seats without ever really having to do anything. New parties have no chance of ever competing with them because they simply cant raise the funds needed, its all about how much money you have. Conservatives get it from 'donations' and Labour get it via the unions.

And still they manage to con enough people to vote for them on the basis that they're not 'the other lot' [yahboohiss]. When in fact they're virtually the same for the most part.

Too many MP's. Too many Ministers. Too many aides. Too many tiers of government. Too many civil servants. Too many toffs in the House of Lords. Too many Euro MP's. Too many tax sucking useless talking shops and final salary schemes.

It's no wonder the private sector is grinding to a halt with all these leeches bleeding it dry and not doing very much in return.

Time to derail the gravy train.

Hell yeah! I've been saying it for a while, the public sector is far too big in this country, we need more of the private sector because they are the ones who will get us out of this mess and actually make the country grow again. They are the ones who pay the taxes to pay the wages of all these MP's. I remember reading a stat when Gordon Brown was in charge that our public sector is bigger than China's....a communist country, i really couldnt believe it and its just ridiculous.
 
PJMCC1UK said:
twinkletoes said:
PJMCC1UK said:
Wasn't it Keynes who said spend to boost the economy when in a slump. But he also said to save when things are going good to pay for it. Unfortunately the last government didn't heed that advice so we can't spend our way out of it.
If you take Stiglitz's advice then we just end up with more debt and even when times are good we'll have to borrow instead of living off our own means.

Do nothing and have 10 years of stagnation.

The proof being?
I know things aren't moving but how can you be so sure that they won't for ten years? And surely this treaty adds to the chance of stagnation because it stops people spending their way out of the recession.

There is no proof.

Twinkletoes, did Stiglitz mention how it's worked out for Japan or (with hindsight) how he would have played that hand? He is a fairly bright guy from my limited knowledge of him and it is clear he does not like the austerity measures but governments need to cut the deficit first before they can invest - id be interested in reading any article from him that debunks that starting premise.
 
Amazing how some people still parrot the line that China is 'communist'. First of all, it's never been small-c communist. Secondly, China is now more capitalist than any country in Europe and North America.
 
metalblue said:
Skashion said:
Amazing how some people still parrot the line that China is 'communist'. First of all, it's never been small-c communist. Secondly, China is now more capitalist than any country in Europe and North America.

China has been more "capitalist" for years now - the unions would have a field day there.
Well, if they have red stars and ignorant US politicians shout commie at them, it must mean they're commies.
 
Skashion said:
metalblue said:
Skashion said:
Amazing how some people still parrot the line that China is 'communist'. First of all, it's never been small-c communist. Secondly, China is now more capitalist than any country in Europe and North America.

China has been more "capitalist" for years now - the unions would have a field day there.
Well, if they have red stars and ignorant US politicians shout commie at them, it must mean they're commies.

Economically no, politically yes - commialist?
 
Can't beat Dan Hannan on the EU

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdqw8aKm_4s&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

I wish I could adequately convey the intensity of the anti-British feeling in the European Parliament. In today's debate on last week's Brussels summit, speaker after speaker rose to denounce our entire nation as selfish, narrow-minded and arrogant. These were not speeches from backbenchers: they came from the spokesmen of the big three parties which, among them, account for three quarters of all MEPs.

Some spoke vaguely but menacingly of retribution, of making us feel the consequences of our isolation. Others were more specific. Joseph Daul, the Alsatian leader of the EPP, gave us a timely reminder of why David Cameron was right to pull out of that bloc with his demand that, simply as a first step, the UK rebate be removed. (To remind you, our net contribution rose by 74 per cent last year; and, since we joined in 1973, we have been the second-largest net donor – a contribution which, far from eliciting gratitude, invariably prompts hectoring demands for more.)

The Liberal leader, Guy Verhofstadt – who, as this clip reminds us, has a long history of making anti-British speeches – made a point of not speaking in English as he normally does, declaring that it would be inappropriate to the occasion. Since Britain wasn't at the table, he said, it would instead be on the menu.

I could quote dozens of similar comments, but, written down, they fail to conjure the ambience. You needed to be present, to hear the yowling and shrieking and desk-banging that accompanied every Anglophobic utterance. To get a sense of what it was like, I should perhaps do better to cite a famous passage from the beginning of Nineteen Eighty-Four:

The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but, on the contrary, that it was impossible to avoid joining in. Within thirty seconds any pretence was always unnecessary. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge-hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one’s will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic.

What do I conclude from the new mood? First, and most obviously, that Britain cannot back down without a national humiliation unprecedented since Suez – possibly since the fall of Singapore. Lib Dems keep talking hopefully about letting the eurozone 26 use the EU Treaties, but that would be the worst of all worlds: we would have attracted all the opprobrium and then given way on the thing we had vetoed.

Second, as I argued yesterday, the EU will now wilfully and deliberately set out to maim the City. This was, of course, going to happen anyway. Friday's veto has simply removed any pretence that the damage to our financial services would be incidental or unintended. Now we know that it will be malicious.

Third, the British Government will need to take unilateral action to defend its interests. This will mean amending the 1972 European Communities Act to provide that EU Directives and Regulations should be treated as advisory pending a specific implementing decision by Parliament. Which will, in turn, mean a renegotiation of our status within the EU – something that is in any case now unavoidable unless we intend to climb down entirely.

Fourth, since Eurocrats no longer bother to disguise their contempt for Britain, let's ask the question that has been hovering at the edge of our consiousness all along. Why do we submit to government from people who plainly detest us?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...ouble-to-disguise-their-loathing-for-britain/
 
Skashion said:
metalblue said:
Skashion said:
Amazing how some people still parrot the line that China is 'communist'. First of all, it's never been small-c communist. Secondly, China is now more capitalist than any country in Europe and North America.

China has been more "capitalist" for years now - the unions would have a field day there.
Well, if they have red stars and ignorant US politicians shout commie at them, it must mean they're commies.

Well they are communist. They run a free market system but try watch tv, state funded news, no freedom, no rights, no human rights.

How do you think China makes stuff so much cheaper than anyone else. They dont do it buy paying workers the legal minimum wage of £6 p/h
 
BoyBlue_1985 said:
Skashion said:
metalblue said:
China has been more "capitalist" for years now - the unions would have a field day there.
Well, if they have red stars and ignorant US politicians shout commie at them, it must mean they're commies.

Well they are communist. They run a free market system but try watch tv, state funded news, no freedom, no rights, no human rights.

How do you think China makes stuff so much cheaper than anyone else. They dont do it buy paying workers the legal minimum wage of £6 p/h

I've watch the students in their first 4 weeks of university life go through their military training 3 times now. Anyone who thinks the China is no a communist state is kidding themselves. How they chose to fund the apparatus is through exploitation of capitalist consumers and as such some of that culture does pervade daily life but when push comes to shove it is a single party state and that party is communist.

For the first time on record, the Chinese Communist party has lost all control, with the population of 20,000 in this southern fishing village now in open revolt.
The last of Wukan’s dozen party officials fled on Monday after thousands of people blocked armed police from retaking the village, standing firm against tear gas and water cannons.
Since then, the police have retreated to a roadblock, some three miles away, in order to prevent food and water from entering, and villagers from leaving. Wukan’s fishing fleet, its main source of income, has also been stopped from leaving harbour.
The plan appears to be to lay siege to Wukan and choke a rebellion which began three months ago when an angry mob, incensed at having the village’s land sold off, rampaged through the streets and overturned cars.
Although China suffers an estimated 180,000 “mass incidents” a year, it is unheard of for the Party to sound a retreat.
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But on Tuesday The Daily Telegraph managed to gain access through a tight security cordon and witnessed the new reality in this coastal village.
Thousands of Wukan’s residents, incensed at the death of one of their leaders in police custody, gathered for a second day in front of a triple-roofed pagoda that serves as the village hall.
For five hours they sat on long benches, chanting, punching the air in unison and working themselves into a fury.
At the end of the day, a fifteen minute period of mourning for their fallen villager saw the crowd convulsed in sobs and wailing for revenge against the local government.
“Return the body! Return our brother! Return our farmland! Wukan has been wronged! Blood debt must be paid! Where is justice?” the crowd screamed out.
Wukan’s troubles began in September, when the villagers’ collective patience snapped at an attempt to take away their land and sell it to property developers.
“Almost all of our land has been taken away from us since the 1990s but we were relaxed about it before because we made our money from fishing,” said Yang Semao, one of the village elders. “Now, with inflation rising, we realise we should grow more food and that the land has a high value.”
Thousands of villagers stormed the local government offices, chasing out the party secretary who had governed Wukan for three decades. In response, riot police flooded the village, beating men, women and children indiscriminately, according to the villagers.
In the aftermath, the local government tried to soothe the bruised villagers, asking them to appoint 13 of their own to mediate between the two sides – a move which was praised. But after anger bubbled over again local officials hatched another plan to bring the rebellious village back under control. Last Friday, at 11.45 in the morning, four minibuses without license plates drove into Wukan and a team of men in plain clothes seized five of the village’s 13 representatives from a roadside restaurant.
A second attack came at 4am on Sunday morning, when a thousand armed police approached the entrance to the village.
“We had a team of 20 people watching out, and they saw the police searchlights. We had blocked the road with fallen trees to buy us time,” said Chen Xidong, a 23 year old. “They banged the warning drum and the entire village ran to block the police.”
After a tense two-hour standoff, during which the villagers were hit with tear gas and water cannons, the police retreated, instead setting up the ring of steel around Wukan that is in force today. The village’s only source of food, at present, are the baskets of rice, fruit and vegetables carried across the fields on the shoulder poles of friendly neighbours.
Then, on Monday, came the news that Xue Jinbo, one of the snatched representatives, had died in police custody, at the age of 43, from a heart attack. His family believe he was murdered.
“There were cuts and bruises on the corners of his mouth and on his forehead, and both his nostrils were full of blood,” said Xue Jianwan, his 21-year-old daughter. “His chest was grazed and his thumbs looked like they had been broken backwards. Both his knees were black,” she added. “They refused to release the body to us.”
Mr Xue’s death has galvanised his supporters and brought the explosive situation in the village to the brink. “We are not sleeping. A hundred men are keeping watch. We do not know what the government’s next move will be, but we know we cannot trust them ever again,” said Mr Chen. “I think they will try to prolong the situation, to sweat us out.”
From behind the roadblock, a propaganda war has broken out. Banners slung by the side of the main road to Wukan urge drivers to “Safeguard stability against anarchy – Support the government!” Nearby, someone has scrawled, simply: “Give us back our land.”
The news of Wukan’s loss has been censored inside China. But a blue screen, which interrupts television programmes every few minutes inside the village, insists that the “incidents” are the work of a seditious minority, and have now been calmed. “It is all lies,” said Ms Xue.
Her brother, meanwhile, said life had improved since the first officials were driven out three months ago. “We found we were better at administration. The old officials turned out not to have had any accounts in their office, so they must have been swindling us. And we have a nightwatch now, to keep the village safe. We have all bonded together,” said Xue Jiandi, 19.
With enough food to keep going in the short-term and a pharmacy to tend to the sick, the leaders of Wukan are confident about their situation.
But it is difficult to imagine that it will be long before the Communist Party returns, and there are still four villagers in police custody.
“I have just been to see my 25-year-old son,” Shen Shaorong, the mother of Zhang Jianding, one of the four, said as she cried on her knees. “He has been beaten to a pulp and his clothes were ripped. Please tell the government in Beijing to help us before they kill us all,”
 

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