Cameron vetoes EU Treaty change

[SWP's back]

So when they bring these new 'Tobin' taxes in where will all the big finance companies go to.....City Of London?

Yep - a masterstroke.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Good, we finally disagree. I'm pro Europe but the treaty was not to our benefit.

Did you have the same mis-givings towards the single currency when we pulled out?

I must confess that I was disappointed when we didn't join the Euro, and I have been proved spectatularly wrong on that, and I have considered that when forming a view on this.

BTW I'm not necessarily opposed to what Cameron has done per se but I worry long term about the effect our isolation from Europe will have on us as a country, especially if that isolationism takes on a nationalistic tone which is how large parts of the Tory party would want it, given their posturings on this matter.

There are other considerations here other than a treaty. The future of our country is on the very line and if large parts of the Tory party get their way Britain will take a backwards step.

 

[PJMCC1UK]

The EU has not brought peace. It has had nothing to do with any peace treaties signed in the Balkans etc. What the EU has brought, and it is different to the Common Market, is a unified currancy and a unified trading zone. Ish. The trouble is countries like Greece (who lied about debt levels) are rushed in for some reason and then they wonder why it all goes tits up..

I said it had brought peace to lage parts of a continent. I did not refer to the Balkans and most certainly would not claim the the EU had any direct impact on that, although the carrot of EU membership doubtless acted as a civlising force on those countries after the Bakans wars. To my mind there is no doubt that its formation 60 years ago brought previously warring countries closer and has cemented them together.

We are not the same, a united Europe will never work due to the differences and thousands of years history. We still mistrust the French and Germans. We don't understand most of Europe. The German people mistrust the Russians, Dutch and Belgians. The French mistrust everyone..

The English are different from the Scots and the Welsh and there's also a lot of distrust there too. Just becuase you're not identical in outlook or custom doesn't mean you can't work together in a common purpose. What does a Texan have in common with an Alaskan?

Thinking that by signing up to the EU will make everyone happy is madness and was bound to fail especially as they broke rules right at the start.

Bound to fail ignores the positive effect it has had on trade and the movement of goods and people which in my view is a good thing. Without it, the lives of Europeans would be a lot less interesting,cosmopolitan and most importantly, free.

Most of the countries in it are going bust and losing jobs. You see that as positive?

 

[SWP's back]

Good, we finally disagree. I'm pro Europe but the treaty was not to our benefit.

Did you have the same mis-givings towards the single currency when we pulled out?

I must confess that I was disappointed when we didn't join the Euro, and I have been proved spectatularly wrong on that, and I have considered that when forming a view on this.

BTW I'm not necessarily opposed to what Cameron has done per se but I worry long term about the effect our isolation from Europe will have on us as a country, especially if that isolationism takes on a nationalistic tone which is how large parts of the Tory party would want it, given their posturings on this matter.

There are other considerations here other than a treaty. The future of our country is on the very line and if large parts of the Tory party get their way Britain will take a backwards step.

But we were not leaders in the EU anyway and never would be.

I think this was the perfect time to take a step back

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Merkel using Sarkozy's perilous position to promote the Federal Republic of EuroGermany. There is a cultural arrogance that is very obvious to anyone who has work with our German cousins. This arrogance drives them to always believe they are right and better and should lead all others. The idea that the absolute failure of the Euro can be fixed by further fiscal union in the EU handing more power to those who have fucked up in the first place is quite typical of the mentality that passes blame rather than accepting failure. Had the UK failed to veto this idiotic amendment then we would have been forced to not only further fund the euro but to allow it's parents to set controls and limits on our own independent financial industry.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

So you are saying that the formation of the EU made the lives of Europeans more interesting? In what way?

By increasing the exchange of different and differing goods, ideas, people and customs between its member states. People had a much more narrow outlook on life 60 years ago. The EU has helped broaden people's horizons by creating a forum which positively encouraged them to trade with each other.

I'm guessing that you class yourself as European?

To some extent. English first. British second. European third.

 

[smudgedj]

Merkel using Sarkozy's perilous position to promote the Federal Republic of EuroGermany. There is a cultural arrogance that is very obvious to anyone who has work with our German cousins. This arrogance drives them to always believe they are right and better and should lead all others. The idea that the absolute failure of the Euro can be fixed by further fiscal union in the EU handing more power to those who have fucked up in the first place is quite typical of the mentality that passes blame rather than accepting failure. Had the UK failed to veto this idiotic amendment then we would have been forced to not only further fund the euro but to allow it's parents to set controls and limits on our own independent finical industry.

Well this goes waaaay back to de Gaulle he said to the Germans words to the effect "By working together we will bring the anglo-saxons to their knees."

 

[BoyBlue_1985]

So when they bring these new 'Tobin' taxes in where will all the big finance companies go to.....City Of London?

Yep - a masterstroke.

I forgot about that its fucking genius. Europe could basically of kick started our economy back!!<br /><br />-- Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:52 pm --<br /><br />

Merkel using Sarkozy's perilous position to promote the Federal Republic of EuroGermany. There is a cultural arrogance that is very obvious to anyone who has work with our German cousins. This arrogance drives them to always believe they are right and better and should lead all others. The idea that the absolute failure of the Euro can be fixed by further fiscal union in the EU handing more power to those who have fucked up in the first place is quite typical of the mentality that passes blame rather than accepting failure. Had the UK failed to veto this idiotic amendment then we would have been forced to not only further fund the euro but to allow it's parents to set controls and limits on our own independent financial industry.

I remember reading in a book sometime back in the 1930's when the Germans started posturing and wanted to force there views on people, it didn't work out to well im led to believe

 

[twinkletoes]

Britain's stance will leave us on the outside looking in and create problems for the only real wealth creators in the country, export manufacturing.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Britain's stance will leave us on the outside looking in and create problems for the only real wealth creators in the country, export manufacturing.

Correct. We are playing a very dangerous game here.