Cameron vetoes EU Treaty change

[gordondaviesmoustache]

What is this supposed to mean?

Fairly straightforward, Twinkle's statement was not true (re manufacturing, something GDM then went on to agree with me on). In my opinion Twinkle was originally dismayed by Cameron pulling out on the grounds of disagreeing with everything he does on the grounds that he disagrees with everything any Tory does. As have several on the left in this thread, however, the blog in the New Statesman may swing them round now.

It's not straightforward. It suggests the left position is to support the strengthening of the EU and the further decline of British autonomy. Other than being an average Daily Mail reading idiot, which you are not I hasten to add, backing the EU is not a left-wing position. The tories took us into Europe. Maggie signed the Single European Act (the act where the most powers were surrendered). Major signed the Maastricht Treaty, and a Labour Party who Maggie labelled as her "greatest achievement" (and I completely agree) signed the Lisbon Treaty. Going back to its foundations, its foundations are in the Bilderberg Group. Ideologically, it is the epitome of capitalism. The only reason why some right-wingers have a problem with it are a) xenophobia b) it's not Anglo-Saxon capitalism, more Franco-German.

Pretty spot on, other than the Bilderberg Group bit.

Are you Buzzer1 in disguise, baby?

 

[Skashion]

Read the 1955 Bilderberg Group report: <a class="postlink" href="http://mirror.wikileaks.info/wiki/leak/bilderberg-meetings-report-1955.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://mirror.wikileaks.info/wiki/leak/ ... t-1955.pdf</a>


Baby. :-)

 

[SWP's back]

What is this supposed to mean?

Fairly straightforward, Twinkle's statement was not true (re manufacturing, something GDM then went on to agree with me on). In my opinion Twinkle was originally dismayed by Cameron pulling out on the grounds of disagreeing with everything he does on the grounds that he disagrees with everything any Tory does. As have several on the left in this thread, however, the blog in the New Statesman may swing them round now.

It's not straightforward. It suggests the left position is to support the strengthening of the EU and the further decline of British autonomy. Other than being an average Daily Mail reading idiot, which you are not I hasten to add, backing the EU is not a left-wing position. The tories took us into Europe. Maggie signed the Single European Act (the act where the most powers were surrendered). Major signed the Maastricht Treaty, and a Labour Party who Maggie labelled as her "greatest achievement" (and I completely agree) signed the Lisbon Treaty. Going back to its foundations, its foundations are in the Bilderberg Group. Ideologically, it is the epitome of capitalism. The only reason why some right-wingers have a problem with it are a) xenophobia b) it's not Anglo-Saxon capitalism, more Franco-German.

Have you taken some silly pills. I said Twinkletoes (and many other lefty's on here) position is to take a contrary stance to anything the Tory led government does.

It is very very straightforward. It suggests nothing of the sort you write above.

You also miss several reasons why some have a problem with the EU and decided to be disingenuous in your two reasons which saddens me as you are normally far more balanced.

 

[SWP's back]

Fairly straightforward, Twinkle's statement was not true (re manufacturing, something GDM then went on to agree with me on). In my opinion Twinkle was originally dismayed by Cameron pulling out on the grounds of disagreeing with everything he does on the grounds that he disagrees with everything any Tory does. As have several on the left in this thread, however, the blog in the New Statesman may swing them round now.

It's not straightforward. It suggests the left position is to support the strengthening of the EU and the further decline of British autonomy. Other than being an average Daily Mail reading idiot, which you are not I hasten to add, backing the EU is not a left-wing position. The tories took us into Europe. Maggie signed the Single European Act (the act where the most powers were surrendered). Major signed the Maastricht Treaty, and a Labour Party who Maggie labelled as her "greatest achievement" (and I completely agree) signed the Lisbon Treaty. Going back to its foundations, its foundations are in the Bilderberg Group. Ideologically, it is the epitome of capitalism. The only reason why some right-wingers have a problem with it are a) xenophobia b) it's not Anglo-Saxon capitalism, more Franco-German.

Pretty spot on, other than the Bilderberg Group bit.

Are you Buzzer1 in disguise, baby?

Not really as I, at no point said that left wing position is to back the EU. So the rest of his post (which is factually correct and on historical record rather than a matter of opinion) is entirely moot.

His last sentence is incredibly lazy and does no justice to some peoples genuine concerns of a federal European state.

 

[Skashion]

You also miss several reasons why some have a problem with the EU and decided to be disingenuous in your two reasons which saddens me as you are normally far more balanced.

I probably did abuse your post to make the point that the EU is not really a left-right issue. Some elements of the left oppose it as strongly as some elements of the right and have done so from the very start.

I don't know your post history with Twikletoes and 'other leftys' so I'll leave you to that one but this lefty is not party-political. I'm an ideologue.

I think you may have missed my point on that one. My point was not that right-wingers might not oppose it for legitimate reasons but that ideologically-speaking it can only be opposed from a pure xenophoebic view or from it's-capitalism-but-it's-not-capitalism-as-we-know-it view. That the EU is too expensive, that there's a democratic deficit, that Britain is not an equal partner, that it reduces Britain's autonomy, these are not left-right ideological issues.

 

[kronkonite]

I'd disagree with you inevitably Prestwich -keynesianism allows for investement when an economy needs a boost

I think Keynesianism gave us nokia and the korean shipping industry

 

[leighton]

That was the other thing. Ireland voted no at first and they got the hump and demanded a re-vote. Total madness and look what eventually happened.

I've always wondered why this happened, how did the re-vote come about?

The revote came about because the treaty was changed. It wasnt only Ireland who voted against the treaty I think the Dutch done the same thing as well. As far as I am aware the UK people dont vote on things like this which is crazy. IF the people are happy with it they will vote it in if not then it wont pass. I just fucking hope we get to vote on this again.

 

[SWP's back]

You also miss several reasons why some have a problem with the EU and decided to be disingenuous in your two reasons which saddens me as you are normally far more balanced.

I probably did abuse your post to make the point that the EU is not really a left-right issue. Some elements of the left oppose it as strongly as some elements of the right and have done so from the very start.

I don't know your post history with Twikletoes and 'other leftys' so I'll leave you to that one but this lefty is not party-political. I'm an ideologue.

I think you may have missed my point on that one. My point was not that right-wingers might not oppose it for legitimate reasons but that ideologically-speaking it can only be opposed from a pure xenophoebic view or from it's-capitalism-but-it's-not-capitalism-as-we-know-it view. That the EU is too expensive, that there's a democratic deficit, that Britain is not an equal partner, that it reduces Britain's autonomy, these are not left-right ideological issues.

I don't take issue with that, as I say, I was simply stating that the najority on the left, in "off topic" would call Cameron a **** even if he gave them all a £30k rebate. It is what they do.

 

[PJMCC1UK]

That was the other thing. Ireland voted no at first and they got the hump and demanded a re-vote. Total madness and look what eventually happened.

I've always wondered why this happened, how did the re-vote come about?

The revote came about because the treaty was changed. It wasnt only Ireland who voted against the treaty I think the Dutch done the same thing as well. As far as I am aware the UK people dont vote on things like this which is crazy. IF the people are happy with it they will vote it in if not then it wont pass. I just fucking hope we get to vote on this again.

We were told we would get a vote then the MPs just accepted it regardless. They knew that we would reject it. Like we would vote out of Europe now. They're scared. The Irish really had no choice. Very little was changed and they were just doing what Europe does best and dictating the vote.

 

[Skashion]

I don't take issue with that, as I say, I was simply stating that the najority on the left, in "off topic" would call Cameron a **** even if he gave them all a £30k rebate. It is what they do.

As I said, I did abuse a post which addressed someone else to make my own point. I shouldn't have done it. I should have just made the point on its own. Apologies.

Now, hate to distract you from laying into didatic. I just chose to take the piss instead. I'm too lazy to fight the good fight at times, plus I'm going out soon.