Can they ever be caught?

[Blue Coop]

Some interesting names in there, especially in the first list. I was fairly unaware that Everton had been champions so many times, for instance. Of course, they did win it twice in the eighties. In this age when so many younger fans seem to think that football was invented along with satellite television and the formation of the Premier League, it’s good to be reminded of these things. For a long time in my lifetime, Villa were the record holders for the number of FA Cup wins.
As for the opening question, I can’t say I care very much. One thing for certain: if the dippers and rags can be caught, I won’t be around to see it.

Yeah have to admit had no idea Everton had that many titles either. Or Sunderland, actually. You hear loads about Villa but never Sunderland or Everton.

 

[Lovebitesandeveryfing]

To be fair, Sunderland’s last title goes back to before the Second World War. Amazingly, though, they’ve been champions more recently than Newcastle, something that must rankle with the toons.

 

[TCIB]

Honestly I don't care if we don't, I can leave the counting trophies to the rags and istree boys, that's what defines them and makes them such souless hollow fans.

As long as we play football that is a joy to watch I will be happy, and that football will lead to some trophies from time to time, after what we've had before, that'll do me.

I must admit to being of the same school as you here Mr Genie. I just do not really care to much about trophy numbers, if we catch the top trophy winners quick then fair enough. I am however just happy watching us week to week and enjoying this amazing footy we serve up.

Not pissing on the ops parade i must add, fair do's if you like the top trumps style stuff, stats of any kind can be very interesting to people. I am still busy accepting we have Pep, a world leading setup and that opal fruits are called starburst.

 

[Blue Coop]

I must admit to being of the same school as you here Mr Genie. I just do not really care to much about trophy numbers, if we catch the top trophy winners quick then fair enough. I am however just happy watching us week to week and enjoying this amazing footy we serve up.

Not pissing on the ops parade i must add, fair do's if you like the top trumps style stuff, stats of any kind can be very interesting to people. I am still busy accepting we have Pep, a world leading setup and that opal fruits are called starburst.

I’m relatively indifferent to it all actually, despite posting it. Like you I just find the football we are playing at the moment fascinating, and I hope we break the points record and go down as the highest points finish in history, because the football to date deserves that.

It was just a good debate in person so I thought I’d post it here. I personally don’t think a team will ever be able to truely dominate because I think the spread of money will always mean that teams go in cycles, it’s harder to consistently build a stronger side. I thought our 11/12 side would be very dominant after that season, and it just didn’t happen because we stood still. Keeping this side moving forwards will be difficult because players to improve it are very expensive or unknown.

 

[dadnlad]

Didn't Villa once win the European Cup? I've heard such tales, once or twice...

Stanley is that you
i claim my fiver :)

 

[foggy1974]

At the moment Liverpool are on a run of one minor trophy in ten years. The rags pre Fergie went on a run of 3 fa cups and a Eufa cup in 26 years. To be honest I dont really care if we catch either, but watching Peps team for the next 5 years we will get close. I would rather see the history clubs relegated, no offence to the likes of Huddersfield, Preston and Notts Forest.

 

[TCIB]

I’m relatively indifferent to it all actually, despite posting it. Like you I just find the football we are playing at the moment fascinating, and I hope we break the points record and go down as the highest points finish in history, because the football to date deserves that.

It was just a good debate in person so I thought I’d post it here. I personally don’t think a team will ever be able to truely dominate because I think the spread of money will always mean that teams go in cycles, it’s harder to consistently build a stronger side. I thought our 11/12 side would be very dominant after that season, and it just didn’t happen because we stood still. Keeping this side moving forwards will be difficult because players to improve it are very expensive or unknown.

I think with Pep here we will get a few trophies in a shorter time than me maybe usually would. I am not counting my chickens, i think it is fair going off his track record and how he has done here so far. At the very least i think we will go 4th in the total table you posted by the time Pep leaves and as likely as not, right up Arsenal's chuff. I do think we will top that table to but it will be closer to 2050 when we could revisit it and see that reflected.

 

[TravisBickle]

I think so but it would take 30+ years of domination.

I’m up for it :)

 

[Exeter Blue I am here]

Interesting discussion in the pub around whether the success of United and Liverpool in the past can ever be replicated, or whether the sport has changed too much now. Not just by City, but by anyone. What are your views?

For reference here is where City stand on the four major trophy fronts, each one just listed as far so to include Spurs, United, Liverpool, City, Arsenal and Chelsea.

Top Division Title
Man United 20
Liverpool 18
Arsenal 13
Everton 9
Villa 7
Sunderland 6
Chelsea 6
City 4
Spurs 2

FA Cup
Arsenal 12
United 12
Spurs 8
Villa 7
Liverpool 7
Chelsea 7
Blackburn 6
Newcastle 6
City 5

League Cup
Liverpool 8
United 5
Villa 5
Chelsea 5
City 4
Spurs 4
Forest 4
Leicester 3
Arsenal 2

European Cup
Liverpool 5
United 3
Forest 2
Chelsea 1
Villa 1
City 0
Arsenal 0
Spurs 0

Total of above
United 40
Liverpool 38
Arsenal 27
Villa 20
Chelsea 19
Spurs 14
City 13

Have to say I couldn’t care less. Wittering on about what they won in the dim and distant is the domain of your average rag or dipper. I’m just revelling in our 7 year ongoing sojourn as the best side in the country. Here and now’s what counts and with every passing day what the dippers won in the 70’s and 80’s becomes as irrelevant as what Huddersfield won in the 1930’s

 

[Scottish Cityzen]

Another table with us at the bottom of it. You don't work for sky do you?

We won’t be bottom by the end of the season!

 

[city2]

The past is the past and those clubs have had their time for the foreseeable future, and now it looks like its city's time to forge ahead and win trophies so enjoy the moment and long may it last.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Of course their success of the past can be replicated. But it takes time.

The question would be, whether those teams can also win a substantial number of titles during that period, thus still maintaining a higher number of titles.

13 of Utd's titles came in the Premier League, starting during a period when Liverpool thought it would be them, who would be winning it. Liverpool haven't won it since. There was no real expectation as to why Liverpool should stop. Just that they had lost great managers & better teams came along.

That could happen to Utd.

But who cares, so long as we are playing like this ?

 

[aguero93:20]

Of course their success of the past can be replicated. But it takes time.

The question would be, whether those teams can also win a substantial number of titles during that period, thus still maintaining a higher number of titles.

13 of Utd's titles came in the Premier League, starting during a period when Liverpool thought it would be them, who would be winning it. Liverpool haven't won it since. There was no real expectation as to why Liverpool should stop. Just that they had lost great managers & better teams came along.

That could happen to Utd.

But who cares, so long as we are playing like this ?

It is happening to the rags right now. They've spent a shit load, brought in marquee players and a manager they thought would guarantee titles and 2 years into his tenure they're 13 points adrift at the halfway mark with a 6th place finish under their belt wondering how on earth they're going to close the gap.

 

[urban genie]

It is an iineresting pub debate, and we probably have all talked about it, and I doubt a team will dominate again

But then when does a team stop being regarded as big/successful/important etc is another question. let's take the top 6 teams

Scousers haven't won anything since 2012 and not won the league since the 80's
Rags won two trophies last keeping them relevant trophy wise.
Arsenal went years without a trophy recently but FA cup wins put them back as a successful team pot wise.
Chelsea won things recently.
Spurs haven't won fuck all for years.

The other clubs on the original list have dropped divisions and influence over the decades.

So if you look at it on winning pots at present Liverpool, Spurs are lorded about as are great clubs along with the great club that is Newcastle who have been shite for decades bar keegans time. Yet these 3 are not successful, just nostalgically bigged up by pundits, many which had played for them

Basically it's all bollocks.

 

[Neville Kneville]

It is happening to the rags right now. They've spent a shit load, brought in marquee players and a manager they thought would guarantee titles and 2 years into his tenure they're 13 points adrift at the halfway mark with a 6th place finish under their belt wondering how on earth they're going to close the gap.

Yes, but the question is whether they can unearth a good enough manager, to build them a team to compete & whether the Glazers are willing to keep allowing their bounty to be used on players.

City have raised the bar, imo to a level never before seen, & can still raise it still further, but imo not that much further. They are doing so many things right, as a team, that there is only so far it can go. You could find a Colin Bell to take over from Fern perhaps, a bigger faster Otamendi, a Harry Kane size cf who can also do what Aguero/Jesus do plus win a load of headers/shoot from distance, but imo we have almost reached a level which can't be surpassed, only equalled.

It's also a hell of a difficult standard to maintain & Barca couldn't do it. But if City did do it, then the question would be, whether other teams, such as the rags, could find a way (perhaps playing in a different style, but with loads of 'superstars' ) to match it. Mourinho has tried it by spoiling & lumping & it hasn't worked.

If they can't, & we maintain this standard, we consistently win. The other teams have to improve, even if we drop off a bit.

I imagine what will happen, is that some teams will learn & improve, enough to compete, & occasionally get on top, but we will still tend to be at the top more often than them, like with Barca & Bayern.

No guarantee the rags are one of those teams though.

 

[aguero93:20]

Yes, but the question is whether they can unearth a good enough manager, to build them a team to compete & whether the Glazers are willing to keep allowing their bounty to be used on players.

Too risky to unearth anyone, they'll keep going for marquee names of which Maureen was probably the one with the highest guarantee of success. Zidane next when he gets the chop at Madrid.

If they can't, & we maintain this standard, we consistently win. The other teams have to improve, even if we drop off a bit.

I imagine what will happen, is that some teams will learn & improve, enough to compete, & occasionally get on top, but we will still tend to be at the top more often than them, like with Barca & Bayern.

No guarantee the rags are one of those teams though.

This is the funny thing for me, people are still lauding BFS in England, it will be a long time before they improve enough.

 

[its a Barm]

Well I am 56 and I don't see us catch up to 20 not even with pep in charge, that said as long as we keep picking up a trophy each year then who knows where it will end up I hope my grandsons get to see us overhaul the rags trophy count.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Too risky to unearth anyone, they'll keep going for marquee names of which Maureen was probably the one with the highest guarantee of success. Zidane next when he gets the chop at Madrid.


This is the funny thing for me, people are still lauding BFS in England, it will be a long time before they improve enough.

Most of the league to improve 'enough' maybe, but out of the biggest clubs, all have some traits in common with City/Pep, barring the Depressed Dino at the swamp.

Mourinho is desperately trying to drag football back nto the dark ages, but I would say that Klopp, Pinocchio, Conte & Wenger, are all trying to advance it, in their own ways.

 

[Chi-town blues]

Looks like op is surrounded with rags and dippers.

 

[m7mcfc]

You beat me to it.

Also, your totals are simplistic, OP. You’d have to weight the various competitions. For example a CL is worth hugely more than an FA Cup, and a PL title much more than a League Cup. On that basis, the task would be even greater.

Thought we didn't give a fuck about the Champions league?....Be nice to win it though.