Capital Punishment.

JOGAMIGMOG said:
See the Arena bomber has attacked prison officers and inflicted ‘life threatening injuries’ upon them. I’d be more than happy if he was first in the queue.
Click to expand...

Should already have been in the ground the ****
 
Grassland Blue said:
In Manchester walk from Piccadilly rail station to the Morrisons end of the 'gardens'.
In Newcastle come out of Central station main entrance and cross the road to Greggs.
You will witness some of the type of people I am referring to.
Click to expand...
Nah. I’ve done those walks hundreds of times over the past 20yrs. Never have I come across a weed smell nor had any kind of aggressive approach. I have been asked for money from folk begging but they’re always polite. As I said it’s always ex-pats shouting the loudest about how shit the UK is. I tend to think it’s a way of convincing themselves they’re right to live away.
 
And in China the abolition of the death penalty, along with animal rights, environmental protection, and LGBTQ, is bundled together and labeled as topics meant to "promote Western liberals." The underlying implication of "liberalism" here is that it serves the bourgeoisie. Simply put, liberal ideology is seen as a tool—not truly for your freedom, but for the interests of the capitalist class. Thus, people with a proletarian consciousness tend to resent the push to abolish the death penalty.

(Another interesting example is how people oppose legally banning dog meat consumption for largely the same reasons. Yes, we strongly defend your right to eat dog meat.)
 
flook said:
Having a loved one injured or killed, deliberately in the context of what's being discussed, is an emotional subject. Why would you not want it to form part of the justice system? The precedent is already there to some degree in the form of victim impact statements
Click to expand...

Because it allows for uneven justice. What if the victim has no family or loved ones or is estranged from them? Who speaks upon his or her behalf? Will the lack of impact on others mean a reduced sentence for the culprit? Is a life that no one is around to mourn worth less than a life that is mourned?

Justice should be as blind as it is humanly possible to be, which is difficult enough in many cases, without adding more emotional stress.
 
BobKowalski said:
Because it allows for uneven justice. What if the victim has no family or loved ones or is estranged from them? Who speaks upon his or her behalf? Will the lack of impact on others mean a reduced sentence for the culprit? Is a life that no one is around to mourn worth less than a life that is mourned?

Justice should be as blind as it is humanly possible to be, which is difficult enough in many cases, without adding more emotional stress.
Click to expand...
So why allow impact statements at all?

Ignoring emotion ignores the damage done to a victims surviving friends and family, if the victim has no such friends or family, there is no impact on them (obviously). This shouldn't mean the crime is treated as a lesser one, although the perpetrator might be fortunate that the lack of such statements helps reduce his sentence.

In this particular instance, (todays manchester bomber story) the crime was designed to have as much emotional impact as possible, those carrying out the attack have shown no remorse, they deserve the wrath of the survivors
 
Last edited:
Grassland Blue said:
As for freedom of speech, there are only 3 topics which are frowned on.
Gov, Politics and religion.
Click to expand...

I mean, you've pretty much covered all bases there haven't you?

What is Chinas record on LGBTQ rights? Genuine question, I don't know the answer.
 
Pedestrian said:
Nah. I’ve done those walks hundreds of times over the past 20yrs. Never have I come across a weed smell nor had any kind of aggressive approach. I have been asked for money from folk begging but they’re always polite. As I said it’s always ex-pats shouting the loudest about how shit the UK is. I tend to think it’s a way of convincing themselves they’re right to live away.
Click to expand...
You’ve walked near Piccadilly gardens hundreds of times and never once smelt weed? You’re either lying or you don’t know what weed smells like.
 
flook said:
I mean, you've pretty much covered all bases there haven't you?

What is Chinas record on LGBTQ rights? Genuine question, I don't know the answer.
Click to expand...
Not being of that persuasion I can't really comment, but I have seen people of the same sex walking hand in hand.
I have also seen trans artistes in nightclubs, so I guess same sex relationships are accepted.
(I am H&M - hetero & married).
 
Grassland Blue said:
I am currently in a country which has set firm boundaries.
You do not smell drugs as you walk around the towns and cities, which are very clean.
You do not see the unfortunates in life trying to beg money almoat as soon as you get off a train or bus.
The people are interested in you and can't do enough for you.
The crime rate is very low, I believe, because everyone is aware of the enforced boundaries, one of the punishments being death.
Compare this to the chaos in the U.K. where so many want to be 'a special case' and feel they can behave however they want with no comebacks.
Perhaps if our boundaries were as rigidly enforced, very few people would come close to being dealt with in such an extreme way.
It starts with feet on the seats, littering, children running around in pubs, youths and others driving (and riding) recklessly etc. The list of this sh1t ia a very long one.
Thoughts.
Click to expand...
A number of American states have capital punishment and harsh sentencing laws, and yet.
 
WT86 said:
A number of American states have capital punishment and harsh sentencing laws, and yet.
Click to expand...
My answer to that is ;
If a person is part of an inclusive society and can see that he/she is being treated fairly, then that person has no need to commit crime.
The trade off is that, from time to time, you may be irritated by bureaucracy, or the actions of those appointed to enforce the rules/laws of the country.
It is important to know that the police are there to keep order and help anyone who might require it.
Big brother is certainly watching you, but in such a way as an older brother would look out for a junior sibling in school.
The principle of everyone being safe, or else no one is, applies throughout China.
 
Grassland Blue said:
My answer to that is ;
If a person is part of an inclusive society and can see that he/she is being treated fairly, then that person has no need to commit crime.
The trade off is that, from time to time, you may be irritated by bureaucracy, or the actions of those appointed to enforce the rules/laws of the country.
It is important to know that the police are there to keep order and help anyone who might require it.
Big brother is certainly watching you, but in such a way as an older brother would look out for a junior sibling in school.
The principle of everyone being safe, or else no one is, applies throughout China.
Click to expand...
I think there's a lot to be said for a more collective-minded society, but the downsides aren't limited to irritating bureaucracy, as many Chinese immigrants to the west can tell you. I also don't think harsh punishments or an unaccountable government are a prerequisite of social order. Functioning democracy and the rule of law create their own form of peace, as in parts of Europe or the more functional American states.

That said there's no perfect balance between order and personal freedom, and Chinese people are entitled to the government that suits them.
 
Grassland Blue said:
My answer to that is ;
If a person is part of an inclusive society and can see that he/she is being treated fairly, then that person has no need to commit crime.
The trade off is that, from time to time, you may be irritated by bureaucracy, or the actions of those appointed to enforce the rules/laws of the country.
It is important to know that the police are there to keep order and help anyone who might require it.
Big brother is certainly watching you, but in such a way as an older brother would look out for a junior sibling in school.
The principle of everyone being safe, or else no one is, applies throughout China.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't bother.

The prevailing view on here is China bad, not much you can do to change that on a forum in the West.

In the same way that people on here really think Trump was elected simply because more than half the American population who voted are stupid and because of the price of eggs. Or because he lies a lot.
 
halfcenturyup said:
I wouldn't bother.

The prevailing view on here is China bad, not much you can do to change that on a forum in the West.

In the same way that people on here really think Trump was elected simply because more than half the American population who voted are stupid and because of the price of eggs. Or because he lies a lot.
Click to expand...
Chinese intuition on topics like politics and state affairs is based on societal, historical, and international realities. This intuition fundamentally differs from that of Western countries and is extremely difficult to explain clearly in just a few words. So it's impossible to persuade anyone to change their mind on a forum. In fact, even some foreigners who have lived in China for over 20 years find it still hard to truly understand.
And it's also true for America...
 
Alvin-blue-qhd said:
Chinese intuition on topics like politics and state affairs is based on societal, historical, and international realities. This intuition fundamentally differs from that of Western countries and is extremely difficult to explain clearly in just a few words. So it's impossible to persuade anyone to change their mind on a forum. In fact, even some foreigners who have lived in China for over 20 years find it still hard to truly understand.
And it's also true for America...
Click to expand...
I know that I am not going to change the opinion of the majority of people on here, nor am I trying to.
All I am saying is that China is not anywhere near as bad as it is made out to be and is very safe to visit.
If I can persuade just one or two to go there with an open mind and see for themselves, I would be in the words of Pep, "So so happy".
You can fly direct to Beijing from Manchester in around 10 and a half hours and do not need a visa (if you are only staying for up to 3 days on a stopover).
I shall be returning at the end of August for a while, if anyone wants to join me.....
 
Grassland Blue said:
My answer to that is ;
If a person is part of an inclusive society and can see that he/she is being treated fairly, then that person has no need to commit crime.
The trade off is that, from time to time, you may be irritated by bureaucracy, or the actions of those appointed to enforce the rules/laws of the country.
It is important to know that the police are there to keep order and help anyone who might require it.
Big brother is certainly watching you, but in such a way as an older brother would look out for a junior sibling in school.
The principle of everyone being safe, or else no one is, applies throughout China.
Click to expand...
Treated fairly? Ask anyone in any developing country if they think the police deal with people fairly. I live in Vietnam, and the police are almost exclusively associated with corruption and taking bribes. Part of the big frustration in any developing, authoritarian country is the exact thing that you're crediting them with, which is that justice isn't fairly applied. If you're a tourist or an expat, it's unlikely to ever affect you. But try being a factory worker having a dispute with an owner. See how quickly a bunch of thugs are sent in with a blind eye from the authorities. Or imagine you have a house in the way of a big infrastructure project and see how quickly your property is taken for a fraction of its real value with little to no legal recourse. Or imagine you've been assaulted by the son of a powerful government official. See how quickly those charges disappear. I've lived in three developing countries (not China) and the lack of trust of law enforcement and the criminal justice system are pretty universal, even in Malaysia, where my personal experience with the police was largely excellent.

Given that this is a thread about capital punishment, what does that actually look like in authoritarian countries with high levels of corruption? Well firstly, the chances of you receiving it as a punishment are based vastly on your social status, and how many friends and enemies in high places you have. Singapore recently put to death a Malaysian man with learning difficulties for drug smuggling, for example.

I live in a country where they give out the death penalty for corruption, which if applied fairly, would result in the death of every CEO and politician in the country. And yet, they're all still alive. So what is it in reality? It's a threat to ensure political control over people and to make sure the right people get paid their 'cut' of the profits. Make too many political enemies and you might just find that your 'corruption' becomes an issue. If everyone's corrupt, everyone has to toe the line.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
I live in a country where they give out the death penalty for corruption, which if applied fairly, would result in the death of every CEO and politician in the country. And yet, they're all still alive. So what is it in reality? It's a threat to ensure political control over people and to make sure the right people get paid their 'cut' of the profits. Make too many political enemies and you might just find that your 'corruption' becomes an issue. If everyone's corrupt, everyone has to toe the line.
Click to expand...
They don't give out death penalty for corruption, the major concern is, death penalty can be a effective tool to eliminate your political opponents. Ancient wisdom.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
Treated fairly? Ask anyone in any developing country if they think the police deal with people fairly. I live in Vietnam, and the police are almost exclusively associated with corruption and taking bribes. Part of the big frustration in any developing, authoritarian country is the exact thing that you're crediting them with, which is that justice isn't fairly applied. If you're a tourist or an expat, it's unlikely to ever affect you. But try being a factory worker having a dispute with an owner. See how quickly a bunch of thugs are sent in with a blind eye from the authorities. Or imagine you have a house in the way of a big infrastructure project and see how quickly your property is taken for a fraction of its real value with little to no legal recourse. Or imagine you've been assaulted by the son of a powerful government official. See how quickly those charges disappear. I've lived in three developing countries (not China) and the lack of trust of law enforcement and the criminal justice system are pretty universal, even in Malaysia, where my personal experience with the police was largely excellent.

Given that this is a thread about capital punishment, what does that actually look like in authoritarian countries with high levels of corruption? Well firstly, the chances of you receiving it as a punishment are based vastly on your social status, and how many friends and enemies in high places you have. Singapore recently put to death a Malaysian man with learning difficulties for drug smuggling, for example.

I live in a country where they give out the death penalty for corruption, which if applied fairly, would result in the death of every CEO and politician in the country. And yet, they're all still alive. So what is it in reality? It's a threat to ensure political control over people and to make sure the right people get paid their 'cut' of the profits. Make too many political enemies and you might just find that your 'corruption' becomes an issue. If everyone's corrupt, everyone has to toe the line.
Click to expand...
Where to start.
First of all China is more developed than you seem to be aware.
Secondly, society is organised and orderly.
Third, if you get into a minor disagreement with someone ýou won't get shot, (this includes over reaction by police during eg traffic stops.)
Your kids won"t get shot or butchered in school by some random individual with a chip on their shoulder.
I cannot speak about other countries which I haven't visited, but China, although no Utopia is nowhere near as black as it is painted.
 
Grassland Blue said:
Where to start.
First of all China is more developed than you seem to be aware.
Secondly, society is organised and orderly.
Third, if you get into a minor disagreement with someone ýou won't get shot, (this includes over reaction by police during eg traffic stops.)
Your kids won"t get shot or butchered in school by some random individual with a chip on their shoulder.
I cannot speak about other countries which I haven't visited, but China, although no Utopia is nowhere near as black as it is painted.
Click to expand...

List of school attacks in China - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top