Capital Punishment.

Alvin-blue-qhd said:
Chinese intuition on topics like politics and state affairs is based on societal, historical, and international realities. This intuition fundamentally differs from that of Western countries and is extremely difficult to explain clearly in just a few words. So it's impossible to persuade anyone to change their mind on a forum. In fact, even some foreigners who have lived in China for over 20 years find it still hard to truly understand.
And it's also true for America...
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Alvin, genuine question albeit probably impossible to answer so am just interested in your personal opinion; but how much of Chinese current 'intuition' around collectivism etc is a function of historical elements, like the role of Confucianism, and how much is a function of political structures? The CCP has been in control of China for 75 years now so broadly 3 generations. If you work on the admittedly simplistic view that rules become culture within 3 or 4 generations how much are people's underlying views shaped by their recent political past versus the longer history of the country and culture? I know there are distinct phases of CCP rule which means those 75 years are in no way heterogeneous but broadly speaking how much do historical mindsets and experience either support or clash with current politics?

I ask because your comments about Chinese views on the death penalty were framed mostly in modern political terms so that and your comment above piqued my interest in the balance between pre and post 20th century history on how people think.
 
threespires said:
Alvin, genuine question albeit probably impossible to answer so am just interested in your personal opinion; but how much of Chinese current 'intuition' around collectivism etc is a function of historical elements, like the role of Confucianism, and how much is a function of political structures? The CCP has been in control of China for 75 years now so broadly 3 generations. If you work on the admittedly simplistic view that rules become culture within 3 or 4 generations how much are people's underlying views shaped by their recent political past versus the longer history of the country and culture? I know there are distinct phases of CCP rule which means those 75 years are in no way heterogeneous but broadly speaking how much do historical mindsets and experience either support or clash with current politics?

I ask because your comments about Chinese views on the death penalty were framed mostly in modern political terms so that and your comment above piqued my interest in the balance between pre and post 20th century history on how people think.
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I think, generally speaking, people in West overestimate the concept of "ccp control something". You don't or you can't really control Chinese. People in this country are "wild". (I mean selfish, cruel, unprincipled, I don't know if it's a proper word) , because Chinese are too "wild", there is always a feeling or willing to "get things under control", the collectivism.

It's like the two sides of the same coin. I don't fear my government, I fear my people. If you want to find some bright, positive, civilized, idealistic aspects of this society, the answer is CCP.

Back to your question, I think the political structure is the "result" of the calculation from my people, especially the best part of my people(those who are the most capable, brave and kind). It rises from the people, it educates the people, and from the people it updates itself.

And people do it in a realistic manner, because of the history and the culture. You know we have a long history, full of wars, and...all those "wild" things.
 
Alvin-blue-qhd said:
I think, generally speaking, people in West overestimate the concept of "ccp control something". You don't or you can't really control Chinese. People in this country are "wild". (I mean selfish, cruel, unprincipled, I don't know if it's a proper word) , because Chinese are too "wild", there is always a feeling or willing to "get things under control", the collectivism.

It's like the two sides of the same coin. I don't fear my government, I fear my people. If you want to find some bright, positive, civilized, idealistic aspects of this society, the answer is CCP.

Back to your question, I think the political structure is the "result" of the calculation from my people, especially the best part of my people(those who are the most capable, brave and kind). It rises from the people, it educates the people, and from the people it updates itself.

And people do it in a realistic manner, because of the history and the culture. You know we have a long history, full of wars, and...all those "wild" things.
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Fascinating answer, thanks. I won't derail the thread further but I might try and find another thread to ask a couple of follow-up questions if there's a more appropriate one.
 
Grassland Blue said:
Ok.
So you have found a few random incidents going back several years.
In a nation of 1.4 billion people, although tragic, that is negligible.
Compare that to (for example) the U.S.A., a supposed world leading nation of 350 million. I don't think that you would need to go as far back to reach similar numbers.
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So China is the same as every country other than the US and a handful of others then? Where else has regular school shootings?
 
Grassland Blue said:
Where to start.
First of all China is more developed than you seem to be aware.
Secondly, society is organised and orderly.
Third, if you get into a minor disagreement with someone ýou won't get shot, (this includes over reaction by police during eg traffic stops.)
Your kids won"t get shot or butchered in school by some random individual with a chip on their shoulder.
I cannot speak about other countries which I haven't visited, but China, although no Utopia is nowhere near as black as it is painted.
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I don't really get what you're on about. You could say all of that about almost every country in the world.
 
Back to ? capital punishment in this country.
Violence is a bigger problem for society, in my opinion.Simply because someone doesn't die after being assaulted ,perhaps by good fortune, or the expertise of the medical profession doesn't minimise the offence.
Therfore anyone convicted of a third separate offence of violence with a tariff of four years or more ,which would be very a serious act of violence, should be subjected to capital punishment .
Some may say ,the state should not take a life,which is fine but we expect the military and some sections of the police have that authority, and are expected to make those spit second life and death decisions often in extremely stressful situations ,whereas the assailant would have had three judicial chances to prove innocence in a court of law.
It is often said 'life should mean life ' from those opposed to c/p.
.As we see ,from recent news ,containing potentially thousands of prisoners with no hope of a release date ,is fraught with danger,and is very difficult , not to mention expensive .
The comparisons with other countries ,is also not useful, because of the obvious differences in their societies.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
I don't really get what you're on about. You could say all of that about almost every country in the world.
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Isn't that really the point? China is pretty much the same as almost any country in the world. It has a system of government which, while anathema to the western mindset, is largely suitable to its particular circumstances and largely provides what its population feels is important.
 
halfcenturyup said:
Isn't that really the point? China is pretty much the same as almost any country in the world. It has a system of government which, while anathema to the western mindset, is largely suitable to its particular circumstances and largely provides what its population feels is important.
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And that relates to capital punishment how? The implication is that China was orderly and successful because it retains (and uses) the death penalty. I said that's utter bullshit, and all I've had in response is a description of how great China is, with no explanation about how it's in any way related to capital punishment. Because it isn't.
 
Grassland Blue said:
Where to start.
First of all China is more developed than you seem to be aware.
Secondly, society is organised and orderly.
Third, if you get into a minor disagreement with someone ýou won't get shot, (this includes over reaction by police during eg traffic stops.)
Your kids won"t get shot or butchered in school by some random individual with a chip on their shoulder.
I cannot speak about other countries which I haven't visited, but China, although no Utopia is nowhere near as black as it is painted.
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Your idea of America is a caricature, but both "orderly" China and violent America have the death penalty, so again, what are you trying to say?
 
WT86 said:
Your idea of America is a caricature, but both "orderly" China and violent America have the death penalty, so again, what are you trying to say?
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I feel much safer in a country with a rigid set of rules with boundaries that suit the majority of its' people.
If the death penalty needs to be part of that regimen, so be it.
 
Interesting fact Marshall Petain was head of the French Vichy Govt - the collaborators - was captured and sentenced to death in 1945. However because he was a French WW1 hero this was immediately commuted to life in prison. He lived another 6 years to age 95 to contemplate his turncoat cuntishness which for me is a better outcome than shooting
 
bluethrunthru said:
Interesting fact Marshall Petain was head of the French Vichy Govt - the collaborators - was captured and sentenced to death in 1945. However because he was a French WW1 hero this was immediately commuted to life in prison. He lived another 6 years to age 95 to contemplate his turncoat cuntishness which for me is a better outcome than shooting
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Sadly though, he wasn’t a turncoat. He believed fully in what the Nazi’s were doing and saw it as an opportunity to ‘resurrect France’ back to a time before the left wing liberals had ‘taken over’. Interestingly, the last street sign bearing his name was only taken down in 2013, suggesting there were a lot of people who agreed with him.
For what it’s worth, I’d have had him strung up and I’m not an advocate of capital punishment…..
 
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