Capitalism .......A force for good or A force for bad.

[inbetween]

The biggest issue is that there is no idealistic middle ground. Socialism is unworkable, especially in an ever-burgeoning population. Everyone having a fair slice of the cake doesn't work if there are more and more people who want the cake; and to further the analogy, the thinner the slices become, the further the decrease in the quality and standard of life becomes.

Arguably, capitalism is equality in the sense that opportunity to exploit it is equal for everyone. I think Jeff Bezos is a grotesque individual, but I don't begrudge him the money he has earned. I begrudge him not paying what can be considered reasonable amounts of his capital back into the system gave him the lifestyle now afforded to him. It's loopholes that need to be addressed, not capitalism itself as a start line.

Disneyland has brought joy to millions of children worldwide. But it only exists because of capitalism. It is the brainchild of imagination and captilist venture. We're on a football forum; the sport as a joyous spectacle, with all the glitz and glamour attached, only exists because of capitalism and greed. I guess my point is, many have enjoyed their life precisely because of capitalism.

The question is simply this, do you want everyone to have a fair slice of the cake? Or do you want everyone to have a fair chance of baking a bigger, tastier cake than others? Capitalism is ugly, but sadly it's the only thing that works.

The only way that something like socialism can work is if we reduce our desires against what we need.

Socialism works to provide a basic standard of living, for example the essentials such as housing, food etc. However, that falls apart when we start to blur our definition of what a good standard of living is. A good standard of living for many is having a bigger house, a better car, a bigger TV, having a few meals out and a holiday. These are fundamentally capitalist needs which you would have to give up because of equality and lack of resources. You can't have a few people going on holiday to Barbados whilst the rest go to Skegness, and no system can afford to send everyone to Barbados.

Would people willingly give up everything these luxuries and everything they have worked for in place of a socialist system which provides all of their basic needs but very little else? Of course they wouldn't, we're wired to protect ourselves and improve our own standard of living first. If this wasn't true then why do people want promotions or try to get better jobs? Do the champagne socialists really understand that such a system will ensure that they never drink champagne again?

The socialists won't tell you this but they all yearn for authoritarianism and dictatorship. The reason why is because ultimately the main obstacle to their implementation of socialism is you and what you want for yourself.

 

[Blue and true]

The only way that something like socialism can work is if we reduce our desires against what we need.

Socialism works to provide a basic standard of living, for example the essentials such as housing, food etc. However, that falls apart when we start to blur our definition of what a good standard of living is. A good standard of living for many is having a bigger house, a better car, a bigger TV, having a few meals out and a holiday. These are fundamentally capitalist needs which you would have to give up because of equality and lack of resources. You can't have a few people going on holiday to Barbados whilst the rest go to Skegness, and no system can afford to send everyone to Barbados.

Would people willingly give up everything these luxuries and everything they have worked for in place of a socialist system which provides all of their basic needs but very little else? Of course they wouldn't, we're wired to protect ourselves and improve our own standard of living first. If this wasn't true then why do people want promotions or try to get better jobs? Do the champagne socialists really understand that such a system will ensure that they never drink champagne again?

The socialists won't tell you this but they all yearn for authoritarianism and dictatorship. The reason why is because ultimately the main obstacle to their implementation of socialism is you and what you want for yourself.

Great post. In summation, capitalism is a perfect system for an imperfect world.

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

I am an unapologetic democratic socialist. I understand the perceived pros and cons of both capitalist and socialist systems and as with all things in life there needs to be a balance.

Capitalism can be a force for good, humans are naturally competitive and competition has brought us progress. But unfettered capitalism quickly becomes a dystopian nightmare of consumerism, environmental destruction and rampant inequality.

Certain services have no business being capitalist ventures, trains the obvious example, water companies another - there’s no true competition here so the fundamentals of capitalism break down. Free market competition would not be such a problem if every person was guaranteed a standard of living and people weren’t worried about their next meal. In modern western nations we are better equipped to provide this today than at any point in human history. Capitalism is also inefficient, creating extraordinary amounts of waste due to the lack of guardrails against practices like planned obsolescence and people buying things they don’t need.

The easy thing to suggest is that we need strongly regulated capitalism, protections for the environment, mechanisms to stop people accumulating obscene wealth, and a strong welfare state and public services to provide every person with a good living regardless of background or situation.

The problem we have now is that we live in a global economy, no country is an island, and so those countries with more regulation are out-competed by those with less. This is how the US economy became so strong; their capitalist class has been allowed to simply exploit everybody else for profit and they’ve used this to exert influence on other countries.

I don’t know what the solution is for humanity, but in this country the equation is quite simple for me. We need to become more like the Nordic countries and less like the USA because the scales have tipped way too far for the average citizen. We don’t have to know the end goal, we just need to feel like we’re moving in the right direction.

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

Let’s see what Tim Curry thinks…

 

[St.Pauli support]

The obvious idea of Capitalism is accumulating capital.
Obviously only for some, not for everybody (it hasn't been invented for fairness to everyone).

In Germany, private wealth (without housing) meanwhile is about €7,700 bn. State debt is about €1,300 bn. There is a constant cash flow from public money to a small number of private accounts.
And we wonder, why all sorts of public infrastructure and systems are underfunded? (We are annoyed to help Ukraine defending their and our freedom by some dozen billion.)

Accumulated money is dead, it's out of the system, it makes no sense to the community of people within a nation.

In Germany, per capita private wealth would equate to €90k on your accounts. It's more in UK. In USA it would be about $400k - per capita! Ask yourself if that's on your and your kids accounts...

We are squeezing our communities and wonder why things get worse, while the nations of the planet we have milked to become rich have understood capitalism and are rightfully not longer interested to live in the shits while we are bathing in champaign. Fairness?

Fairness is a biological term. Status behaviour within a group is fixed on our genes. But human behaviour can be trained in our early years when our brain infrastructure is being developed. Now we are manipulated to be good consumers - marketing. Growth.
I'm the best, fuck the rest.

Capitalism is unfair per se, it needs strict regulation to stay within planetary bounderies - for scientific reasons. Egoists don't accept those limitations in their limited life of a manipulated consumer.

Egoism is the opponent in a good working community.
No system is better for maximum egoism than a liberal democracy. The liberal idea wants to minimize the impact of the state on individual (egoist) life. And a democracy doesn't ask for the best decision for everyone, but only for the will of the majority - being mainly egoists!

Surely the world will be a very peaceful place when we are 10 billion people, the majority unfairly treated, climate migration in full move, sea levels rising, deserts expanding and food resources being limited.
Our stupid idea of growth will be blown away and the natural system will do what it does naturally - balance out different energy levels.
But that's just on a geological time frame. We still have enough time to be maximum egoist arseholes.

 

[Rascal]

Thanks everyone for the the thoughtful and quite brilliant replies, its quite interesting how many were so quick to jump on socialism and communism as bad alternatives. i wonder how many have read das kapital. or kropotkin , lenin and trotsky.

capitalism has done a magnificent job of convincing the people that its the only way we can live and as the world eats itself and the those with capital get ever richer those without capital get ever poorer, we even have tory mps thinking foodbanks are myths.

sorry my keyboard is fucked btw. in this capitalist world i will be able to buy a new laptop when i have the money to buy one, in a collectivist world i could go my local library and use one (the capitalists shut them down) creating inequality.


WE ARE LIVING IN DANGEROUS TIMES, THE RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT IS REAL AND FASCISM DOES NOT ARRIVE WITH JACKBOOTS, IT ARRIVES IN SLIPPERS.

FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW, FASCISM HAPPENS WHEN CAPITALISM GOES WRONG. LOOK AT EVERY FASCIST UPRISING FROM FRANCO TO THE MODERN DAY FUCKWITS, THEY ALL SERVE THE RICH AND POWERFUL, FASCISM IS THE UGLY FACE OF CONSERVATISM, AS IT CONSERVES POWER AND WEALTH IN THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO HOLD POWER AND WEALTH.


APOLOGIES FOR MY KEYBOARD, ITS FUCKED.



I HAVE INCLUDED A PICCY OF ROSAMUND PIKE, BECAUSE WHY NOT.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Thanks everyone for the the thoughtful and quite brilliant replies, its quite interesting how many were so quick to jump on socialism and communism as bad alternatives. i wonder how many have read das kapital. or kropotkin , lenin and trotsky.

capitalism has done a magnificent job of convincing the people that its the only way we can live and as the world eats itself and the those with capital get ever richer those without capital get ever poorer, we even have tory mps thinking foodbanks are myths.

sorry my keyboard is fucked btw. in this capitalist world i will be able to buy a new laptop when i have the money to buy one, in a collectivist world i could go my local library and use one (the capitalists shut them down) creating inequality.


WE ARE LIVING IN DANGEROUS TIMES, THE RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT IS REAL AND FASCISM DOES NOT ARRIVE WITH JACKBOOTS, IT ARRIVES IN SLIPPERS.

FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW, FASCISM HAPPENS WHEN CAPITALISM GOES WRONG. LOOK AT EVERY FASCIST UPRISING FROM FRANCO TO THE MODERN DAY FUCKWITS, THEY ALL SERVE THE RICH AND POWERFUL, FASCISM IS THE UGLY FACE OF CONSERVATISM, AS IT CONSERVES POWER AND WEALTH IN THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO HOLD POWER AND WEALTH.


APOLOGIES FOR MY KEYBOARD, ITS FUCKED.



I HAVE INCLUDED A PICCY OF ROSAMUND PIKE, BECAUSE WHY NOT.

Whatever your point was has been destroyed by your delivery.

Weird.

 

[inbetween]

Thanks everyone for the the thoughtful and quite brilliant replies, its quite interesting how many were so quick to jump on socialism and communism as bad alternatives. i wonder how many have read das kapital. or kropotkin , lenin and trotsky.

capitalism has done a magnificent job of convincing the people that its the only way we can live and as the world eats itself and the those with capital get ever richer those without capital get ever poorer, we even have tory mps thinking foodbanks are myths.

sorry my keyboard is fucked btw. in this capitalist world i will be able to buy a new laptop when i have the money to buy one, in a collectivist world i could go my local library and use one (the capitalists shut them down) creating inequality.


WE ARE LIVING IN DANGEROUS TIMES, THE RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT IS REAL AND FASCISM DOES NOT ARRIVE WITH JACKBOOTS, IT ARRIVES IN SLIPPERS.

FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW, FASCISM HAPPENS WHEN CAPITALISM GOES WRONG. LOOK AT EVERY FASCIST UPRISING FROM FRANCO TO THE MODERN DAY FUCKWITS, THEY ALL SERVE THE RICH AND POWERFUL, FASCISM IS THE UGLY FACE OF CONSERVATISM, AS IT CONSERVES POWER AND WEALTH IN THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO HOLD POWER AND WEALTH.


APOLOGIES FOR MY KEYBOARD, ITS FUCKED.



I HAVE INCLUDED A PICCY OF ROSAMUND PIKE, BECAUSE WHY NOT.

If we talk only of historic implementations of socialism/communism then you won't be able to go to the library because they'll have burnt all the books. Instead you'll only be presented with the approved works of the state. Your internet will also be restricted so you won't need a keyboard to post on here anyway.

Oh and get back to work and stop posting on political forums or else it's the Gulag for you comrade. :)

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Thanks everyone for the the thoughtful and quite brilliant replies, its quite interesting how many were so quick to jump on socialism and communism as bad alternatives. i wonder how many have read das kapital. or kropotkin , lenin and trotsky.

capitalism has done a magnificent job of convincing the people that its the only way we can live and as the world eats itself and the those with capital get ever richer those without capital get ever poorer, we even have tory mps thinking foodbanks are myths.

sorry my keyboard is fucked btw. in this capitalist world i will be able to buy a new laptop when i have the money to buy one, in a collectivist world i could go my local library and use one (the capitalists shut them down) creating inequality.


WE ARE LIVING IN DANGEROUS TIMES, THE RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT IS REAL AND FASCISM DOES NOT ARRIVE WITH JACKBOOTS, IT ARRIVES IN SLIPPERS.

FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW, FASCISM HAPPENS WHEN CAPITALISM GOES WRONG. LOOK AT EVERY FASCIST UPRISING FROM FRANCO TO THE MODERN DAY FUCKWITS, THEY ALL SERVE THE RICH AND POWERFUL, FASCISM IS THE UGLY FACE OF CONSERVATISM, AS IT CONSERVES POWER AND WEALTH IN THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO HOLD POWER AND WEALTH.


APOLOGIES FOR MY KEYBOARD, ITS FUCKED.



I HAVE INCLUDED A PICCY OF ROSAMUND PIKE, BECAUSE WHY NOT.

Try wiping off your jizz from the caps lock you dirty old git.

In the capitalist world you can get a replacement keyboard and screwdriver set online instead of buying new. And you can watch the instructions online through the magic of YouTube and repair it yourself.

In the Stalinist utopia you harp back to, you can't buy consumer goods, there's a shortage economy, access to credit is heavily restricted or non existent and computers never advanced beyond workstations playing the original Tetris.

 

[BrianW]

I liken capitalism to a river.

It is a fine, beautiful and useful thing as long as it keeps within its banks. (No pun intended.)

When it floods over the surrounding land it becomes a pestilential nuisance.

The job of Government is flood defence - but recent Governments have encouraged flooding, which has caused great losses to the vast majority of us.