Yes. Problem is that whoever the cb is, he would have to be an experienced defender who would have the authority and confidence to step in for Kompany. Bonucci might have been a possibility, but Juve would need to replace him.
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Centre back options
- Thread starter Tugay One Cup
- Start date
BimboBob
Well-Known Member
Yes. Problem is that whoever the cb is, he would have to be an experienced defender who would have the authority and confidence to step in for Kompany. Bonucci might have been a possibility, but Juve would need to replace him.
He would be the only one I'd buy. An assured defender.
I've noticed you doing this a lot with posters, reframe things irrationally then claim some silly victory. Please stop. Its silly.Bad example. AM/CM was our most glaring weakness after Gundogan's injury as we had only one player fitting the demands (D.Silva), I've been writing about it for months. B.Silva is the most important transfer of this summer as he'll allow us to get total pressing and proper control back. No offence, but Pep's [very straight] thinking doesn't become counterintuitive just because you don't understand the basics of his game. Don't invent things, please.
Here are the facts unframed. The strongest concentration of talent was at AM/CM. At no other position did we have talents the equal of Kevin, Silva and Gundogan. We have then gone an added a stud to that positioned. Thus, factually speaking we have improved our strongest position.
If you believe this is the weakest position. Please list the names of the players in any stronger you feel is stronger and lets compare.
If you can't, please shut up and stop making dumb claims... I'm bored already.
Perhaps. I don't think we'll get him anyway.His form has dropped off a cliff over the last 18 months. Talk to any reds and they would be ecstatic to offload him to us for 15m.
Yes, Pep said we have to cover our backs, if he (Kompany) goes down. He also discussed us not having enough quality in both boxes. Then gives an example of players. with great qualities - 'Otamendi and Kompany' quality Centerbacks he calls them. "They win duels." He said. On other occasions he has also spoken glowingly of the quality of John Stonrs. Once or 2ice early in the season he also lauded Kolarov. Pep consistently spoke glowingly about the CBs but no other position on defense.
His rant about lacking quality in both boxes, was an indictment on our goalie and offense if you pay careful attention. As he said it while pointing out we give up so few chances but concede too much.
Yes, the Kompany backup comment supports what you and the English punditry believe. But it was a way of saying he wasn't confident Kompany was out of the woods yet. I didn't take it as him being literal about buying. I rank our weakest to strongest positions as follows:
LB,RB,GK,DM,WF,ST,CB,AM
In terms of depth and strenght. Only the core of David Silva, Debryune and Gundogan were stronger than our CB core.And yet our first signing was at AM/WF. Which is quintessential counterintuitive Pep smart thinking. Pep doubled down on our strongest posituon. Sure, If we could get Hummels, or Varane of course this would be great and probably another example of doubling down on strengths.
But the notion that CB is our weak spot simply isn't backed by the body of comments by Pep on the issue of our squad. Not just single instances, but the whole. it Isn't backed by how few chances we concede. It Isn't backed by how every statistical measure rates both Ota and Kompany highly, and Stones and Kolarov above average.
Can we get better at CB? Yes. Is it a glaring weakness that is most key. No. Not by a long shot. And the totality of Pep's musings on the issue backs that up.
I don't recall Pep making those comments about Otamendi - he certainly has regarding Kompany (link below). He is not a Mourinho-esque manager who be-rates his players in public. He tends to follow the corporate mantra of "praise in public, critique in private". So I don't think any laudatory comments about Otamendi and Stones means that he is satisfied with our resources at CB. In fact, his dwelling on Kompany being a "real central defender" plus our interest in Van Dijk and Bonucci suggests he is not. That said, I agree with Neville - he will only sign someone who is top quality. If what is available is just ok, then we stick with Otamendi, Stones and give a chance to Tosin - which frankly, I wouldn't be dismayed to see, providing we get the world class full backs we need.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ws/man-city-transfer-vincent-kompany-12997513
I don't recall Pep making those comments about Otamendi - he certainly has regarding Kompany (link below). He is not a Mourinho-esque manager who be-rates his players in public. He tends to follow the corporate mantra of "praise in public, critique in private". So I don't think any laudatory comments about Otamendi and Stones means that he is satisfied with our resources at CB. In fact, his dwelling on Kompany being a "real central defender" plus our interest in Van Dijk and Bonucci suggests he is not. That said, I agree with Neville - he will only sign someone who is top quality. If what is available is just ok, then we stick with Otamendi, Stones and give a chance to Tosin - which frankly, I wouldn't be dismayed to see, providing we get the world class full backs we need.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sporra-news/man-city-transfer-vincent-mpany-12997513[/QUOTE
Completely agree with not reading to much into the praise, I remember him showering Bravo a couple of times with praise after gruesome performances.I don't recall Pep making those comments about Otamendi - he certainly has regarding Kompany (link below). He is not a Mourinho-esque manager who be-rates his players in public. He tends to follow the corporate mantra of "praise in public, critique in private". So I don't think any laudatory comments about Otamendi and Stones means that he is satisfied with our resources at CB. In fact, his dwelling on Kompany being a "real central defender" plus our interest in Van Dijk and Bonucci suggests he is not. That said, I agree with Neville - he will only sign someone who is top quality. If what is available is just ok, then we stick with Otamendi, Stones and give a chance to Tosin - which frankly, I wouldn't be dismayed to see, providing we get the world class full backs we need.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ws/man-city-transfer-vincent-kompany-12997513
He just doesn't do public criticism of players.
I remember one of the Bayern fans mentioning the praise he gave to their Brazilian centre back immediately before selling him.
Well, I don't think we are in disagreement. Pep is not satisfied with his squad and thinks it can always get better. He says it all the time. But when you take his responses all together its hard to suggest CB is an area he is more so dissatisfied with than others.I don't recall Pep making those comments about Otamendi - he certainly has regarding Kompany (link below). He is not a Mourinho-esque manager who be-rates his players in public. He tends to follow the corporate mantra of "praise in public, critique in private". So I don't think any laudatory comments about Otamendi and Stones means that he is satisfied with our resources at CB. In fact, his dwelling on Kompany being a "real central defender" plus our interest in Van Dijk and Bonucci suggests he is not. That said, I agree with Neville - he will only sign someone who is top quality. If what is available is just ok, then we stick with Otamendi, Stones and give a chance to Tosin - which frankly, I wouldn't be dismayed to see, providing we get the world class full backs we need.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ws/man-city-transfer-vincent-kompany-12997513
His focus on Kompany was a response to continuous questions about Kompany. He got asked about Kompany so much twds the end of the season that it was impossible not to focus on him.
I agree with you though, he will sign a great CB if the opportunity arose, but he is okay with what he has.
But in reality, isn't that true of every position in the squad?
Bernado CM/AM
Sanchez WF/ ST
Mendy/Bertand LB
Walker/Alves RB
Ederson GK
Frankly only CB and DM dontbhave strong links.
Andrew___K
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 20 Aug 2016
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- 3,799
I've noticed you doing this a lot with posters, reframe things irrationally then claim some silly victory. Please stop. Its silly.
Here are the facts unframed. The strongest concentration of talent was at AM/CM. At no other position did we have talents the equal of Kevin, Silva and Gundogan. We have then gone an added a stud to that positioned. Thus, factually speaking we have improved our strongest position.
If you believe this is the weakest position. Please list the names of the players in any stronger you feel is stronger and lets compare.
If you can't, please shut up and stop making dumb claims... I'm bored already.
No probs, I can elaborate it a bit further, I just rarely make long posts.
You're insisting in your post that CB is not our most glaring weakness, which I disagree. Common sense tells me that Pep is trying to repair the CB problem by bringing in new, better players, openly admitting it in interviews. Which is absolutely normal and logical.
You, on the other hand, are inventing a very complex and strange set of arguments to defend your position: you're saying that Pep is thinking irrationally ('counterintuitive'), and use the purchase of B.Silva as an example ('Pep thinks differently, look, he bought a player to our most stacked position! Our CBs are good as well!').
I was attacking your example, but did it very briefly as it's a thread about CBs. The example is very poor, as in reality Bernardo's transfer shows how logical and coherent Pep's squad building is, how faithful he is to the chosen style - heavy pressing with high defensive line, using technical mids instead of hardworking 'kantes', staying high and manipulating the opposition instead of sitting back and relying on counters.
Last season our squad was very weak in midfield in terms of ball-retention and passing under pressure, which is the core of any 'JdP' system. No matter what formation you 're using, to lure the opposition into pressing traps and escape them youself, you need to lose the ball very rare and quickly pass it out of difficult situations. If it doesn't work well, positional play in attack becomes either slow simple robotic switching from side to side or a dangerous rollercoaster with a lot of counters conceded. Total pressing becomes impossible as well as the team runs out of steam very quickly (remember first games of the season and how bad we were in 2nd halves).
The only CM in our squad that was up to task last season is 31 yo D.Silva.
Gundogan simply got injured, and no one really knows if he'll be able to recover for the required level. Think we can temporarily exclude him from the equation.
KdB is a quite poor 8 for centrally-focused JdP game, loses the ball easily, he's much better in transitional situations and further up the pitch. And it was evident long ago, I can quote one of my first posts here, from Aug 2016:
or this, from May 2017How do you think Pep will integrate KdB? Does Kev possess the skills needed to play No8 in the current system?
I myself doubt it. We (obviously) can only imagine what "ideal" team in terms of movement and personell Pep holds in his head, but I guess it's rather his "Barca" than his "Bayern", i.e. stretching the oppo with wingers and attacking through the middle, contrary to wing-focused play a-la BMunich. For such game you need CMs with the ability to pass and hold the ball under pressure - Silva, Gundogan, Xavi, Iniesta, Kroos, Busquets, Weigl etc. Pep once tried to integrate a player with more or less similar skillset (Fabregas - good final ball, good shot, relatively bad onball skills) and it didn’t work well. Cesc usually disrupted xaviesta's clever passing flow and seemed a liability even in his best games when he scored and/or assisted for Barca.
Of course, Pep can try to move technically weak player to the wing, like he used to do with Muller. But it would bring the need to either combine him with fast, forward-bombing full back in the mood of alves/bellerin or to sacrifice one defender like he did in Barca (watch Barca vs Chelsea, 2012) or one CM (like in BM). But I can't see Pep turning to any of these cases.
My bet is that KdB won't last long as a first team player in the light of Ilkay's return and possible attaining of Coric, Kroos etc. I watched Kev for 2 last seasons, he is a deadly weapon for every counter-attacking setup, but just won't do it with Pep.
I've questioned KdB's suitability as No8 at the start of the season, and his performances hasn't convinced me since then. I think if we'll eventually get high-level player of Silva's or Gundogan's type with enough press-resistance ability, KdB will be moved further upfield, probably as RM/RCM. Couple him with a marauding fullback like Walker, and it will hide Kev's lack of speed and technique. Kev's right-footed crosses are imperious, and when our team loses the ball he can move centrally to press and prepare for counters.
Pep is already trying such formation (Southampton and Arsenal before Silva's injury) at the expense of benching Sterling. The reason why he couldn't do it earlier is, IMO, the absence of suitable RB before Navas' convertion and shortage of creative CMs after Gundogan's injury.
By 'lack of technique' I mean obvious lack of press-resistance and ability to operate in tight spaces. KdB doesn't have such qualities (and specific intelligence) to successfully play in the middle for JdP team, he can't safely execute short passing game under heavy pressure. But he's quite effective higher up the pitch having space, especially in 'transitional' situations. To put it simply, he's a deadly counterattacking weapon that needs to hide its deficiencies when the team builds up slowly.
Without B.Silva all other new transfers this summer, including fullbacks, would be less effective. It's very simple and logical, you don't need to use intuition to understand what's being built.
So, does anyone think that Pep builds the squad 'counterintuitively'? Would bringing in another, better CB make sense? Is it repairing holes or 'doubling strengths'? Rhetorical questions.
Sounds like words of a hysterical child. Behave yourself, please.If you can't, please shut up and stop making dumb claims... I'm bored already.
I'm With Stupid
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- 19,248
I honestly think that the main issue for our CBs over the past few years hasn't been individual talent, it's that they've been horribly exposed on a regular basis. While I wouldn't have a problem with us bringing in another CB (and we arguably need one just for numbers), it'll be interesting to see how well they perform with new fullbacks, a new goalkeeper and possibly some better cover in the midfield. Although we may find that our better fullbacks ironically leave them more exposed, because they're more likely to bomb forward.
I didn't ask for an elaboration of your theories. I simply asked what area of the squad last year was better than AM/CMNo probs, I can elaborate it a bit further, I just rarely make long posts.
You're insisting in your post that CB is not our most glaring weakness, which I disagree. Common sense tells me that Pep is trying to repair the CB problem by bringing in new, better players, openly admitting it in interviews. Which is absolutely normal and logical.
You, on the other hand, are inventing a very complex and strange set of arguments to defend your position: you're saying that Pep is thinking irrationally ('counterintuitive'), and use the purchase of B.Silva as an example ('Pep thinks differently, look, he bought a player to our most stacked position! Our CBs are good as well!').
I was attacking your example, but did it very briefly as it's a thread about CBs. The example is very poor, as in reality Bernardo's transfer shows how logical and coherent Pep's squad building is, how faithful he is to the chosen style - heavy pressing with high defensive line, using technical mids instead of hardworking 'kantes', staying high and manipulating the opposition instead of sitting back and relying on counters.
Last season our squad was very weak in midfield in terms of ball-retention and passing under pressure, which is the core of any 'JdP' system. No matter what formation you 're using, to lure the opposition into pressing traps and escape them youself, you need to lose the ball very rare and quickly pass it out of difficult situations. If it doesn't work well, positional play in attack becomes either slow simple robotic switching from side to side or a dangerous rollercoaster with a lot of counters conceded. Total pressing becomes impossible as well as the team runs out of steam very quickly (remember first games of the season and how bad we were in 2nd halves).
The only CM in our squad that was up to task last season is 31 yo D.Silva.
Gundogan simply got injured, and no one really knows if he'll be able to recover for the required level. Think we can temporarily exclude him from the equation.
KdB is a quite poor 8 for centrally-focused JdP game, loses the ball easily, he's much better in transitional situations and further up the pitch. And it was evident long ago, I can quote one of my first posts here, from Aug 2016:
or this, from May 2017
Without B.Silva all other new transfers this summer, including fullbacks, would be less effective. It's very simple and logical, you don't need to use intuition to understand what's being built.
So, does anyone think that Pep builds the squad 'counterintuitively'? Would bringing in another, better CB make sense? Is it repairing holes or 'doubling strengths'? Rhetorical questions.
Sounds like words of a hysterical child. Behave yourself, please.
I'll make it simple, here are the groupings
AM/CM: Silva, Kev, Gundogan
CB: Komps Ota, John, Kola
FB: Zab, Sagna, Clichy Kola
DM: Dihno, Yaya, Nando
WF: Sterling, Sane, Nolito, Navas
ST: Aguero, Gabriel, Kelechi
I have simplified it for you, just highlight the area with stronger talent. No need for tortured theories.
Edit: on 2nd thought, don't. You are right, we are moving off topic. Sonlets move back to CB. But we can take this up on the appropriate thread