City & FFP | 2020/21 Accounts released | Revenues of £569.8m, £2.4m profit (p 2395)

BluessinceHydeRoad said:
This is not a hysterical word at all PB and it certainly does not justify your disproportionate reaction. I don't remember outrage on your part when M. Dupont described FFP as "quite simply an unjustified ban on owner investment."
I apologise for my pedantry but the only thing that spoils your usually excellent posts is that you are using language that is not really appropriate. That's the only point I'm trying to make. I've no intention of getting into any sort of feud as I fully understand where you're coming from and also think I safely can claim to be one of the people who's had most to say about the iniquities of FFP since it was mooted. We're on the same side 99.9% but for one small thing.

GDM correctly makes the point that there is no black and white in the law and he's 100% right. Professor Weatherill is as eminent as they come and he makes the case that he believes that FFP (or at least the break-even mechanism) is fully open to challenge under Article 101 but he also says that there is a possible defence (probably more than one). You highlighted UEFA's stated objectives and these were at the core of his argument if I recall correctly.

But, to be pedantic, whatever we think of it and whatever M. Dupont says, FFP is not "illegal" until the courts say it is. It's quite correct to say that it may well be in contravention of EU competition law but until that's tested in the courts it is deemed to be acceptable, in the same way that comeone accused of a crime is deemed to be innocent until proven otherwise.

And it doesn't ban anyone from doing anything but it can impose penalties if the restrictions it imposes are exceeded. So it may be a minor point but words like "illegal" and "ban" are not correct but otherwise I have no argument with what you say.
 
BluessinceHydeRoad said:
Stoned Rose said:
Prestwich_Blue said:
No it doesn't. It imposes a limit on club's spending based on their income. Another part of FFP restricts the amount an owner can invest to €40m over three seasons. Using hysterical words like 'ban' doesn't encourage me to read on.

4b4.gif

This is not a hysterical word at all PB and it certainly does not justify your idisproportionate reaction. I don't remember outrage on your part when M. Dupont described FFP as "quite simply an unjustified ban on owner investment." UEFA have simply chosen not to permit clubs to spend (invest) money not generated from other forms of revenue, but whichever way you want to look at it its intention is clearly to stop some clubs buying the players they want. Owner investment in players is clearly limited and any investment beyond that figure is banned.

The Bosman ruling indicates clearly that football is an economic activity which mus operate within the law. Article 101 has the clear intention of guaranteeing the right to invest, which may not be limited or prohibited (whichever word you prefer). Paragraph 3 gives circumstances in which investment might be limited or prohibited, but such a limit or prohibition would permit technical or economic progress bringing benefits to consumers which the investment would prevent. An agreement to limit the investment must not, however, afford those parties agreeing to limit the investment "the possibility of eliminating competition in respect of a substantial part of the products in question."

If you study Article 101 it is clear that only investment which is designed to hinder progress and damage consumer interests can be limited, so a permanent limit on what an owner can invest is clearly prohibited. FFP falls foul of the law on these grounds. The second point is that the transfer market is a mechanism, as its title shows, for transferring assets (players) from one enterprise to another, which has existed since the beginning of organised professional football. It has never been found to be a form of investment which can be prohibited or limited under Paragraph 3 of Article 101 and, it follows, therefore, that the Sheikh's investment in players cannot be limited either. The law deals with the purposes of investment not the origin of the monies to be invested. If monies from TV companies, paying customers, sponsors etc can be used to invest in assets monies from an owner cannot be disqualified. Arsenal FC would be hard pressed to prove that all the money spent on their stadium came from house building etc, and allowing Manchester United to spend £150 million last summer shows that UEFA do not consider the transfer market to be any breach of Article 101 yet again, but restricting PSG and City to £49 million clearly afforded United " the possibility of eliminating competition in respect of a substantial part of the products in question."

Now you can argue "sporting exceptions" and the "overall good of the game" if you like, but the Bosman ruling shows that football has to operate within the framework of business law, and the courts have to apply the law not ignore it. In City's case UEFA have to show that the Sheikh's investment is actually harming City or any other club in the long, medium or short term and they cannot do this. Nor can they show that the investment so far has damaged anything. They would have to prove that a limit on investment would do any good, especially in dealing with the problem of debt and financial instability. United's debt has increased this year - to around £400 million! The biggest debtors are the biggest spenders. The only conclusion is that UEFA actually considers it "unfair" that clubs with wealthy owners can buy players and may use their financial power to dominate the market. This is a real fear, which may have to be taken seriously, but UEFA cannot take action under a set of rules which are designed to ensure that one group of clubs perpetuate their dominant position in the transfer market at the expense of the Sheikh's club by riding roughshod over his right to invest. It cannot argue that any player bought by the Sheikh is a step towards destroying the competitive balance of football while allowing Real Madrid to buy one player for £100 million, another for £86 million then pay a high fee for the star of the world cup at the same time as forking out for one of the stars of the world cup winners. It is clearly not City threatening the sporting integrity of UEFA competitions. If UEFA feels that City are ever threatening such integrity they do not need FFP and illegal permanent bans - they simply go to court to disqualify the investment in question. Clubs, like individuals, can only be punished for actual breaches of the law.
TBH, I can't see how anyone could argue against anything you've said. To further underpin your points, if what you have said is legally wrong in any way, shape or form, I await a UEFA charge of bringing the game into disrepute to arrive at Vincent Kompany's home address by registered post in the coming days swiftly followed by a libel suit on behalf of UEFA.

There are 3 chances of this happening......... Slim, none and fat fucking!

Kompany knew the significance of what he said and in all likelihood the club were aware of Kompany's intention. Added to the fact Pellegrini has used it as an excuse for our faultering season (which I think has more to do with his lack of tactical nous)
its plain to see that whilst we were winning we kept our own counsel and our public dignity, but now it looks like our season could possibly go tits up, sources within the club are highlighting all the FFP points we already knew.

Irrespective of this, the facts remain as brilliantly highlight by BluessinceHydeRoad, but I just wish we hadn't chosen to use FFP as an excuse for our poor showing this season as there are issues closer to home that are the cause of our current woes imho and using the FFP argument now just dilutes the long standing issues we've always had.
 
mardon85 said:
As much as FFP and its implementation infuriates me.. we still spent 40m on bloody Mangala.. We could have had Sanchez for that.
I have a feeling that today will be the day that he comes good, I fancy him to bag 2 headers from corners, twat Rooney and then pull Falcao's girly headband off and stick it up the Turtles arse.
 
Dicko69 said:
It's like in a pub.
It's up to the landlords who they allow in their pub to be served. No law says they have to serve any individual. UEFA don't have to allow us in their competition. Landlord says no trainers, you got trainers on you ain't coming in. UEFA say you can't spend that much, you spend that much, you ain't coming in
Not strictly true and demonstrates the danger in over-simplifying these matters.

Pub landlords are bound by laws in terms of who they can and cannot serve: they cannot serve someone who is drunk, they are completely prevented from selling alcohol to minors and cannot refuse to serve someone on the grounds of their race, sex, sexuality, gender orientation or disability. They are also legally obliged to consider the needs of the wider community when selling alcohol by retail.


I'm struggling to think of a worse analogy that you could have used tbh.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Dicko69 said:
It's like in a pub.
It's up to the landlords who they allow in their pub to be served. No law says they have to serve any individual. UEFA don't have to allow us in their competition. Landlord says no trainers, you got trainers on you ain't coming in. UEFA say you can't spend that much, you spend that much, you ain't coming in
Not strictly true and demonstrates the danger in over-simplifying these matters.

Pub landlords are bound by laws in terms of who they can and cannot serve: they cannot serve someone who is drunk, they are completely prevented from selling alcohol to minors and cannot refuse to serve someone on the grounds of their race, sex, sexuality, gender orientation or disability. They are also legally obliged to consider the needs of the wider community when selling alcohol by retail.


I'm struggling to think of a worse analogy that you could have used tbh.

I know I simplified it, but don't think it's that bad of a comparison. Always thought in pubs it was up to the management's discretion, and doesn't even have to give an excuse to not serve someone. I've seen that happen. But I digress, the point I was trying to make is I thought the champs league was made up of teams that are invited to enter it. Your names not down, your not coming in.
 
it is pretty simple to my mind, uefa have created rules that prevents wealthy owners spending their hard earned on player recruitment over and above what can be attributed to revenue earned.

therefore the established big boys stay big boys and preserving the status quo
 
Dicko69 said:
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Dicko69 said:
It's like in a pub.
It's up to the landlords who they allow in their pub to be served. No law says they have to serve any individual. UEFA don't have to allow us in their competition. Landlord says no trainers, you got trainers on you ain't coming in. UEFA say you can't spend that much, you spend that much, you ain't coming in
Not strictly true and demonstrates the danger in over-simplifying these matters.

Pub landlords are bound by laws in terms of who they can and cannot serve: they cannot serve someone who is drunk, they are completely prevented from selling alcohol to minors and cannot refuse to serve someone on the grounds of their race, sex, sexuality, gender orientation or disability. They are also legally obliged to consider the needs of the wider community when selling alcohol by retail.


I'm struggling to think of a worse analogy that you could have used tbh.

I know I simplified it, but don't think it's that bad of a comparison. Always thought in pubs it was up to the management's discretion, and doesn't even have to give an excuse to not serve someone. I've seen that happen. But I digress, the point I was trying to make is I thought the champs league was made up of teams that are invited to enter it. Your names not down, your not coming in.
I don't believe it's an 'invitation only' tournament. UEFA set out the access criteria for entering the tournaments, so the top 3 teams in England go straight into the group stages while the fourth placed team has to play in the final qualifying round. They can exclude you if you don't meet certain criteria but I don't believe they invite you to take part.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Dicko69 said:
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Not strictly true and demonstrates the danger in over-simplifying these matters.

Pub landlords are bound by laws in terms of who they can and cannot serve: they cannot serve someone who is drunk, they are completely prevented from selling alcohol to minors and cannot refuse to serve someone on the grounds of their race, sex, sexuality, gender orientation or disability. They are also legally obliged to consider the needs of the wider community when selling alcohol by retail.


I'm struggling to think of a worse analogy that you could have used tbh.

I know I simplified it, but don't think it's that bad of a comparison. Always thought in pubs it was up to the management's discretion, and doesn't even have to give an excuse to not serve someone. I've seen that happen. But I digress, the point I was trying to make is I thought the champs league was made up of teams that are invited to enter it. Your names not down, your not coming in.
I don't believe it's an 'invitation only' tournament. UEFA set out the access criteria for entering the tournaments, so the top 3 teams in England go straight into the group stages while the fourth placed team has to play in the final qualifying round. They can exclude you if you don't meet certain criteria but I don't believe they invite you to take part.

I seem to think that UEFA just give the FA three teams and one qualifying spot and they determine that it comes from league positions.
 
I may be wrong, but I thought (sure I read it somewhere) they invite the top 3, plus 4th into a qualifying round.
Not stating it as fact, but with some confidence.
I think this is why it's such a legal minefield.
which is why I said earlier, the threat of a rival competition with much bigger financial rewards that might turn some of the big teams heads would give UEFA a scare.
 

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top
  AdBlock Detected
Bluemoon relies on advertising to pay our hosting fees. Please support the site by disabling your ad blocking software to help keep the forum sustainable. Thanks.