City & FFP | 2020/21 Accounts released | Revenues of £569.8m, £2.4m profit (p 2395)

[jonmcity]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

I know SAP quite well (until recently I used to work for them) and systems integration work is not their bag at all, so given the earlier description it didn't sound like them. They are also doing shockingly badly in the UK at the moment and I would question whether they have the required cash to splash around. That said their HANA platform is where all their focus is and where their money is being spent, and it does fit well with the real-time BI type of thing that's relevant to sport, so I don't rule it out.

We gave up and moved on after spending 6.5m


Footballers trying to learn SAPwanees lol. Oracle not much better also. They sell these systems as integrated when in fact they are lots of modules bought from acquisitions that don't work together without major integration headache.

True of Oracle mate (I worked there for 10 years too!) But less so of SAP. Business Suite is a pretty well integrated system. The trouble is it's so big and complex - that's why it costs millions to implement.

We gave up after spending 6.5M

 

[Chippy_boy]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

We gave up and moved on after spending 6.5m


Footballers trying to learn SAPwanees lol. Oracle not much better also. They sell these systems as integrated when in fact they are lots of modules bought from acquisitions that don't work together without major integration headache.

True of Oracle mate (I worked there for 10 years too!) But less so of SAP. Business Suite is a pretty well integrated system. The trouble is it's so big and complex - that's why it costs millions to implement.

We gave up after spending 6.5M

Peanuts ;-) I've seen anything up to £1bn spent on SAP projects (big ones admittedly)!

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

We gave up and moved on after spending 6.5m


Footballers trying to learn SAPwanees lol. Oracle not much better also. They sell these systems as integrated when in fact they are lots of modules bought from acquisitions that don't work together without major integration headache.

True of Oracle mate (I worked there for 10 years too!) But less so of SAP. Business Suite is a pretty well integrated system. The trouble is it's so big and complex - that's why it costs millions to implement.

We gave up after spending 6.5M

In SAP/Oracle terms, that's the equivalent of taking the plastic wrapper off the box.

 

[jonmcity]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

True of Oracle mate (I worked there for 10 years too!) But less so of SAP. Business Suite is a pretty well integrated system. The trouble is it's so big and complex - that's why it costs millions to implement.

We gave up after spending 6.5M

In SAP/Oracle terms, that's the equivalent of taking the plastic wrapper off the box.

As we found out-our abbreviation for SAP was Send Another Payment.

 

[OB1]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

True of Oracle mate (I worked there for 10 years too!) But less so of SAP. Business Suite is a pretty well integrated system. The trouble is it's so big and complex - that's why it costs millions to implement.

We gave up after spending 6.5M

In SAP/Oracle terms, that's the equivalent of taking the plastic wrapper off the box.

Do they still come in a box?

;-)

 

[cibaman]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

It's funny Platini already sees FFP as a success. I wonder if that's because privately he was under enormous pressure to sanction City and PSG, and that this summer's fines, transfer spend limits, squad limitations, etc have put him a position with strength with regards the rest of the cartel and what happens next.

What I mean by that is, is it inconceivable that he's now saying to the likes of Bayern that the "sugar daddies" now know they can't just spend without limits on players, and that dialling back the regulations having made the point to City and Paris is the right and proper thing to do. After all there are many practical realities to FFP which are a farce (leveraged buy outs, debt burdens etc). Clubs like United, Madrid, even Barcelona, who carry heavy debt burdens, are subject to illegal state aid, etc are the next logically on UEFA's list of "bad" clubs to go after.

Anyway what I'm saying in a convoluted way is that I'm not surprised that there will be a dialling back of FFP and i'm not surprised if they find ways to allow for people like Mansour to come in and invest over a longer period of time to challenge the elite.

Most importantly though for City, FFP has now become an irrelevance. I can see us being in a position where needing to spend even 200 million next summer won't be a problem.

Exactly how I see it. The only way it has been "a success" is what you refer to: he can turn round to Gill et al and say "there, we did it".

There simply has to be a complete rework of FFP and I see this as the start of it. Who even knows what pressure has been brought behind the scenes by City and PSG? One thing's for sure: there were some heavyweight discussions taking place in the summer when the announcements were delayed. I think the legal implications of this, when faced with pockets as deep as The Sheikh's, could bring UEFA down completely. Imagine if City or PSG pursued for damages? What kind of sums we could be talking there?!?!

I wouldn't be surprised if this is part of some kind of off-the-record deal done in the summer. We took the little hit (£20m was it, and a 21 man Euro Squad) so UEFA could look like they've won, with a promise that that's the end of it and FFP is rewritten completely this season under the pretence of UEFA being the drivers, rather than them running scared.

Like you, I think the way is going to be cleared for us now.

Looks to me like we've played the long game and scored an important victory.
Chalk another one up to Khaldoon and Ferran.

Platini's idea of success is measured against the benchmark that Sulaiman Al-Fahim set. The fantasy football teams that he predicted which scared the shit out of UEFA. The Kaka bid. If you look at our actual recruitment over the last 2 or 3 years compared with the expectations immediately after the takeover, FFP would appear to have had a significant impact. In that sense its been a "success".

 

[Neville Kneville]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Exactly how I see it. The only way it has been "a success" is what you refer to: he can turn round to Gill et al and say "there, we did it".

There simply has to be a complete rework of FFP and I see this as the start of it. Who even knows what pressure has been brought behind the scenes by City and PSG? One thing's for sure: there were some heavyweight discussions taking place in the summer when the announcements were delayed. I think the legal implications of this, when faced with pockets as deep as The Sheikh's, could bring UEFA down completely. Imagine if City or PSG pursued for damages? What kind of sums we could be talking there?!?!

I wouldn't be surprised if this is part of some kind of off-the-record deal done in the summer. We took the little hit (£20m was it, and a 21 man Euro Squad) so UEFA could look like they've won, with a promise that that's the end of it and FFP is rewritten completely this season under the pretence of UEFA being the drivers, rather than them running scared.

Like you, I think the way is going to be cleared for us now.

Looks to me like we've played the long game and scored an important victory.
Chalk another one up to Khaldoon and Ferran.

Platini's idea of success is measured against the benchmark that Sulaiman Al-Fahim set. The fantasy football teams that he predicted which scared the shit out of UEFA. The Kaka bid. If you look at our actual recruitment over the last 2 or 3 years compared with the expectations immediately after the takeover, FFP would appear to have had a significant impact. In that sense its been a "success".

Yep, it's allowed Real Madrid, Barca, Utd & Arsenal to pay stupidly over the odds for players & push up wages whilst penalising us for paying a reasonable price for players & reducing wages, so it's done exactly what it was supposed to.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Looks to me like we've played the long game and scored an important victory.
Chalk another one up to Khaldoon and Ferran.

Platini's idea of success is measured against the benchmark that Sulaiman Al-Fahim set. The fantasy football teams that he predicted which scared the shit out of UEFA. The Kaka bid. If you look at our actual recruitment over the last 2 or 3 years compared with the expectations immediately after the takeover, FFP would appear to have had a significant impact. In that sense its been a "success".

Yep, it's allowed Real Madrid, Barca, Utd & Arsenal to pay stupidly over the odds for players & push up wages whilst penalising us for paying a reasonable price for players & reducing wages, so it's done exactly what it was supposed to.

When you look at it like that (and is there any other way?) you'd have to say Platini has played a blinder. No wonder we are all so fucked off about it.

 

[Roy Munson]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Playing catch up on this thread so apologies if already mentioned but SAP seem to be making a big play for the football market at the moment.
There was an article in Tuesday's Times describing how they are linking up with Europe's top clubs (we were namechecked) to develop services that will assist in scientific analysis of performance.
Football at the top end is now so awash with money that sponsors are as interested in B2B sales as to the individual consumer.

The work that SAP seem to be doing on big data and analytics in the field of football would surely tie in well with what may be the sport's finest training complex.

SAP is not a consumer brand but wider brand recognition never does any harm, IMO. Ultimately, it's always people that you employ and people that buy your product, even if they are buying it for a business purpose.

Of course, it could, as TH suggested, be Siemens that was being referred to.

I know SAP quite well (until recently I used to work for them) and systems integration work is not their bag at all, so given the earlier description it didn't sound like them. They are also doing shockingly badly in the UK at the moment and I would question whether they have the required cash to splash around. That said their HANA platform is where all their focus is and where their money is being spent, and it does fit well with the real-time BI type of thing that's relevant to sport, so I don't rule it out.

EDIT: Sorry, missed Roy's comments above...

What I meant, Roy, was that they aren't an SI and what you hinted at before sounded more like systems integration work. I guess you know more than me though and since you are questioning my comments, presumably we can conclude it *is* SAP then?

Afternoon Chippy. SAP are definitely going to be doing the system integration. Staff at the club have already had briefings about the scheduling. I'll try and get some clarity later this week but from how it was described to me, the system intergration stuff is only a part of the overall deal, suggesting they'll be providing analytical services as well.

 

[OB1]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

The work that SAP seem to be doing on big data and analytics in the field of football would surely tie in well with what may be the sport's finest training complex.

SAP is not a consumer brand but wider brand recognition never does any harm, IMO. Ultimately, it's always people that you employ and people that buy your product, even if they are buying it for a business purpose.

Of course, it could, as TH suggested, be Siemens that was being referred to.

I know SAP quite well (until recently I used to work for them) and systems integration work is not their bag at all, so given the earlier description it didn't sound like them. They are also doing shockingly badly in the UK at the moment and I would question whether they have the required cash to splash around. That said their HANA platform is where all their focus is and where their money is being spent, and it does fit well with the real-time BI type of thing that's relevant to sport, so I don't rule it out.

EDIT: Sorry, missed Roy's comments above...

What I meant, Roy, was that they aren't an SI and what you hinted at before sounded more like systems integration work. I guess you know more than me though and since you are questioning my comments, presumably we can conclude it *is* SAP then?

Afternoon Chippy. SAP are definitely going to be doing the system integration. Staff at the club have already had briefings about the scheduling. I'll try and get some clarity later this week but from how it was described to me, the system intergration stuff is only a part of the overall deal, suggesting they'll be providing analytical services as well.

Don't know anything about the inner workings of SAP but - based on Chippy's comments - maybe they are subcontracting some of the work whilst being the prime contractor and supplier of certain software?

 

[BlueAnorak]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

The work that SAP seem to be doing on big data and analytics in the field of football would surely tie in well with what may be the sport's finest training complex.

SAP is not a consumer brand but wider brand recognition never does any harm, IMO. Ultimately, it's always people that you employ and people that buy your product, even if they are buying it for a business purpose.

Of course, it could, as TH suggested, be Siemens that was being referred to.

I know SAP quite well (until recently I used to work for them) and systems integration work is not their bag at all, so given the earlier description it didn't sound like them. They are also doing shockingly badly in the UK at the moment and I would question whether they have the required cash to splash around. That said their HANA platform is where all their focus is and where their money is being spent, and it does fit well with the real-time BI type of thing that's relevant to sport, so I don't rule it out.

EDIT: Sorry, missed Roy's comments above...

What I meant, Roy, was that they aren't an SI and what you hinted at before sounded more like systems integration work. I guess you know more than me though and since you are questioning my comments, presumably we can conclude it *is* SAP then?

Afternoon Chippy. SAP are definitely going to be doing the system integration. Staff at the club have already had briefings about the scheduling. I'll try and get some clarity later this week but from how it was described to me, the system integration stuff is only a part of the overall deal, suggesting they'll be providing analytical services as well.

Lets hope SAP are paying for the system than otherwise we'll blow two or three times the value of ANY sponsorship on sorting the system out. Quite simply, with SAP flushing money down the loo gives you better value than any system they create for you.

For my current consultancy engagement...
Client: Where can we make our biggest savings in IT?
Me: Get rid of SAP and replace it with a cheaper system that works. The yearly savings alone will pay for the rest of your IT budget.
Client: Are you sure?
Me: Yes. Here's a case study from another client who replaced SAP with a real-time Finance, HR & ERP solution. that works.
Client: Are there any other options?
Me: No not for the level of savings you want to achieve. Any other solution is simply tinkering around the edges.
Client: We can't do that it was put in on the direction of the chief exec!
Me: I suppose I'd better look at tinkering around the edges then...
Client: Yes, and the board have increased the IT budget.

A strange old world. I wonder how much the Chief Exec will trouser from SAP when he moves on?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Meanwhile, at old trafford.....

[bigimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Sinclair_ZX_Spectrum.jpg[/bigimg]

 

[blueinsa]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Meanwhile, at old trafford.....

[bigimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Sinclair_ZX_Spectrum.jpg[/bigimg]

Ah! Brings back fond memories of primary school seeing one of those again :-)

On a serious note GDM, don't you just hate it when folk are talking about such small amounts of money re SAP?

£6.5M would hardly cover your entertainment budget ;-)

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

£6.5M would hardly cover your entertainment budget ;-)

You're right it wouldn't, but we've all had to make sacrifices in the last few years. We're all in this together, remember ;-)

 

[FanchesterCity]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Question for the legal beagles on here:
If Dupont wins the case and due to evidence supplied it implies that there is a cartel in football.....what happens then?

Would the courts go after the Clubs involved &/or the executives involved?

If so, would said clubs face potential heavy fines & directors/executives face fines or prison terms?

There's a lot of questions there.

Firstly, Dupont isn't arguing any collusion's taken place. He's merely arguing that the current FFP regulations are restrictive. For the moment, the suggestion is that they are restrictive purely as a result of being ill judged with regard to reaching the intended objective (stopping clubs getting into financial problems) and as an unintended consequence, they're unnecessarily restrictive, not good for the industry as a whole, and don't benefit the consumer.

Now, IF there was some smoking gun that detailed actual collusion, then this would be a far bigger story and would put the existence of UEFA at risk. But nobody's anywhere near that stage.

But let's suppose evidence ever did come to light... and that it clearly showed collusion between UEFA and some clubs to 'fix' aspects of the industry....

In that case, the courts would have to look at:

a) Who was involved (was it a handful of people who hid it from their own clubs, and UEFA)?
b) Was it intentional collusion, or merely an unintended consequence?
c) How much was the market affected by the collusion?
d) How much did other parties suffer as a result?
e) How much did the colluding parties gain from it?
and much more.

Could people go to prison for collusion? yes
Can businesses be fined? yes
Can victims be compensation? in theory, yes - but in practice this can be hard to put a figure on, and in some cases, the damage is irrevocable.

Whilst a lot of us fans laugh and joke about collusion, with more than a hint of actual suspicion underneath the humour, there's no concrete evidence it's happened. But sometimes, collusion / price fixing etc can happen without organisations realising they're doing it.

For instance - There are two pubs in a small village, and both agree to call a truce to price wars....
They then agree that one will sell only sell Stella Artois, and the other will only sell Carling.
They then agree that it might be nice to make a bit more money, so they both agree to put up their prices by the same amount.

1) Calling a truce to price wars could be interpreted as agreeing a minimum price.
2) Agreeing which products they will sell between them is fixing the market... even if they think they're doing out of common sense.
3) Agreeing to inflate their prices is cast iron example of price fixing.

In theory price fixing is as applicable to a corner shop / local pub as it is to a multinational company. Both are subject to the same laws. However, such small retailers go under the radar (generally, but not always).

There are also special rules for companies that have a particularly large market share (and that can still be a local pub). In those instances, extra measures are put in place to ensure they can't use their market share unfairly.

 

[Newman Noggs]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

I think we got pretty close to evidence of a cartel in the Platini interview with Martin Samuel;

'They think that it’s their competition, that we organise their competition. And, man, it was a big fight from the beginning, from 10 years, from 15 years with G14, with the clubs that say, “it’s our money, we have to organise our money”.

'We make a deal six years ago to the G14 and they say “OK Michel, but for the moment, we don’t touch the distribution of the money”.'

How long has the deal got to go?

'I have to speak with [Karl-Heinz] Rummenigge,’ the most powerful man in European football concludes.

'I don’t want to open the floor of a public debate on that because, you know, it’s complicated. I have to do that quietly, secretly with the people of the clubs.'

 

[BongoBlue]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

I know SAP quite well (until recently I used to work for them) and systems integration work is not their bag at all, so given the earlier description it didn't sound like them. They are also doing shockingly badly in the UK at the moment and I would question whether they have the required cash to splash around. That said their HANA platform is where all their focus is and where their money is being spent, and it does fit well with the real-time BI type of thing that's relevant to sport, so I don't rule it out.

EDIT: Sorry, missed Roy's comments above...

What I meant, Roy, was that they aren't an SI and what you hinted at before sounded more like systems integration work. I guess you know more than me though and since you are questioning my comments, presumably we can conclude it *is* SAP then?

Afternoon Chippy. SAP are definitely going to be doing the system integration. Staff at the club have already had briefings about the scheduling. I'll try and get some clarity later this week but from how it was described to me, the system integration stuff is only a part of the overall deal, suggesting they'll be providing analytical services as well.

Lets hope SAP are paying for the system than otherwise we'll blow two or three times the value of ANY sponsorship on sorting the system out. Quite simply, with SAP flushing for money down the loo gives you better value than any system they create for you.

For my current consultancy engagement...
Client: Where can we make our biggest savings in IT?
Me: Get rid of SAP and replace it with a cheaper system that works. The yearly savings alone will pay for the rest of your IT budget.
Client: Are you sure?
Me: Yes. Here's a case study from another client who replaced SAP with a real-time Finance, HR & ERP solution. that works.
Client: Are there any other options?
Me: No not for the level of savings you want to achieve. Any other solution is simply tinkering around the edges.
Client: We can't do that it was put in on the direction of the chief exec!
Me: I suppose I'd better look at tinkering around the edges then...
Client: Yes, and the board have increased the IT budget.

A strange old world. I wonder how much the Chief Exec will trouser from SAP when he moves on?

Makes too much sense BA; stop that. Everyone knows that SAP needs their increasing cash-flow for their increased complexity of integration and the ever-decreasing return on investment...;) But if they end up as our sponsors and give us a boatload of cash (which I doubt), then all hail.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

I know SAP quite well (until recently I used to work for them) and systems integration work is not their bag at all, so given the earlier description it didn't sound like them. They are also doing shockingly badly in the UK at the moment and I would question whether they have the required cash to splash around. That said their HANA platform is where all their focus is and where their money is being spent, and it does fit well with the real-time BI type of thing that's relevant to sport, so I don't rule it out.

EDIT: Sorry, missed Roy's comments above...

What I meant, Roy, was that they aren't an SI and what you hinted at before sounded more like systems integration work. I guess you know more than me though and since you are questioning my comments, presumably we can conclude it *is* SAP then?

Afternoon Chippy. SAP are definitely going to be doing the system integration. Staff at the club have already had briefings about the scheduling. I'll try and get some clarity later this week but from how it was described to me, the system intergration stuff is only a part of the overall deal, suggesting they'll be providing analytical services as well.

Don't know anything about the inner workings of SAP but - based on Chippy's comments - maybe they are subcontracting some of the work whilst being the prime contractor and supplier of certain software?

SAP is a software company, nothing more.

The project management, change management, systems integration work and pretty much all the delivery will be done by one or more SI's, not by SAP. They just don't have any of those skills. They have expert consultants who can augment any project team, but they won't be leading it.

SAP will doubtless by providing their HANA software for real-time BI (I would hesitate to use the word Analytics since they don't have much of that either, although they may claim they have). Perhaps they are providing ERP software as well, and conceivable CRM. But they must have a partner involved. My guess would IBM, given earlier comments, but honestly it could be any of a number of players. One of the hardware vendors will need to provide the HANA hardware, IBM, HP, IBM, Dell, Fujitsu or Cisco.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Afternoon Chippy. SAP are definitely going to be doing the system integration. Staff at the club have already had briefings about the scheduling. I'll try and get some clarity later this week but from how it was described to me, the system intergration stuff is only a part of the overall deal, suggesting they'll be providing analytical services as well.

Don't know anything about the inner workings of SAP but - based on Chippy's comments - maybe they are subcontracting some of the work whilst being the prime contractor and supplier of certain software?

SAP is a software company, nothing more.

The project management, change management, systems integration work and pretty much all the delivery will be done by one or more SI's, not by SAP. They just don't have any of those skills. They have expert consultants who can augment any project team, but they won't be leading it.

SAP will doubtless by providing their HANA software for real-time BI (I would hesitate to use the word Analytics since they don't have much of that either, although they may claim they have). Perhaps they are providing ERP software as well, and conceivable CRM. But they must have a partner involved. My guess would IBM, given earlier comments, but honestly it could be any of a number of players. One of the hardware vendors will need to provide the HANA hardware, IBM, HP, IBM, Dell, Fujitsu or Cisco.

Ahhh, SAP SIs the blood sucking leaches of the SAP universe.
City will make a loss on any deal involving SAP or a SAP SI - Unless SAP are paying for it as well as sponsoring us.

 

[malg]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Meanwhile, at old trafford.....

[bigimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Sinclair_ZX_Spectrum.jpg[/bigimg]

Design classic.