Bluewonder
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 24 Jun 2013
- Messages
- 3,484
Yes, we won but the letter that followed was a bit more than just insisting they confirm. It was an attack on the PL.
The PL and its supporters. It was a warning.
Yes, we won but the letter that followed was a bit more than just insisting they confirm. It was an attack on the PL.
I assume this is a WUM. You do realise that the red cartel are trying to destroy our Club. Obviously, don’t sign the petition if you don’t want to. You seem to get a bit easily worried.Just got an email from the supporters club attaching a request from Kevin Parker that we all sign a petition to force Masters to resign.
Why is he doing this ? What exactly is getting rid of Masters going to achieve. He’s not the policy maker, he’s just the mouthpiece of the owners.
And besides, isn’t this just provocation on Parker’s part. We’ve just won a major victory, let’s just wait for the dust to settle a bit before provoking even more negativity towards us.
I don't think there would be any point. Why polarise even more by pushing it, when his ineptitude can be exposed anyway. The other clubs will just be frustrated by his inability to bring us to heel for our 'indiscretions'.Yeah, was only hypothesising. Think it’s unlikely, but not inconceivable that City would want this outcome.
He has been paid £1.8m a year and is in it up to his neck.Heads will roll for this, they have to for such a monumental disaster class but do we really want Masters out? This isn't us against him, he isnt even the enemy, he's just the fall guy for the real enemies. If he goes, somebody else takes over championing the yank cartels will instead and they might not be as dim as he appears to be. His incompetence is making things very easy for our lawyers.
Masters is to our legal team what Ten hag is to us.
A bit like a port drinker then.I’m sure it would have leaked.
Yes, I’d say you’re right, but I don’t think it can be ruled out.I don't think there would be any point. Why polarise even more by pushing it, when his ineptitude can be exposed anyway. The other clubs will just be frustrated by his inability to bring us to heel for our 'indiscretions'.
Great summary.Having (finally) had time to read and (partially) digest the judgment, here are my thoughts for what they are worth.
First, I sort of get why the PL took the stance they did, and why some posters and commentators have called it something of a score draw. The bottom line is, if you strip it down and say 'how many of the individual battles did City win, and how many did they lose' the answer is the PL won something like 15-5. So I don't find it surprising that the PL have spun it the way they have, and there is a degree of justification there.
To decide whether a lawsuits has been, basically, either been successful or not, however - whether MCFC 'won' or lost' - it is important to understand what were the objectives of each party.
City's objective is stated in the decision at paragraph 4. City sought a declaration that the rules concerning APTs were unlawful and an order that two decisions of the PL board concerning APTs in which MCFC have tried to participate were unlawful and should be set aside - that is rescinded.
The PL's objective was plainly to uphold their rules and to uphold the two decisions that City challenged.
Then you can look at the final summary paragraph to see how each party did. Paragraph (i) says the APT rules breach sections 2 and 18 of the Competition Act 1998. So the APT rules are unlawful. Paragraphs (ii) and (iii) say much the same thing, in relation to different aspects of the rules.
Then paragraphs (iv) to (vii) say that the two decisions referred to in paragraph 4 were unfair, and those decisions must be set aside.
By that yardstick, there is no doubt at all that City won and the PL lost. City's objectives were spelled out in the decision and they achieved them all.
What muddies the water - if you let it - is that City raised a lot of different arguments as to why the rules were unlawful, and why those decisions were unfair, and the majority of those arguments were not successful. This has allowed the PL and their useful idiots at the BBC to assert something of a score draw or even a PL win.
As I say, when you actually look at what the Club sought by the arbitration and the outcome, there is no doubt City won and the PL lost.
I have been trying to think of a non-legal analogy that might help. Say you were being tested for cancer. The doctor sits you down and says "we tested for lung cancer, you were clear on that. We tested for stomach cancer and you were clear on that. We tested for prostate cancer and you were clear on that. It was only testicular cancer that you tested positive for. "
Do you call that a win? Do you call that a score draw?
Do you fuck. You've been diagnosed with cancer and they're going to cut your bollocks off.
Most people would call that a complete fucking disaster.
That's a dramatic analogy I know, but the point that seems to have been glossed over by some is that something is either lawful or it is not. So when the Government gets taken to court about (say) the legality of the Rwanda scheme, five different arguments might be raised about why it is unlawful. Even if four fail, the success of the fifth tells you what the headlines will be the next day.
So here is my takeaway from the ruling: the PL drew up the new rules in a way which favoured certain teams who rely on interest free shareholder loans. They did that deliberately and knowingly and after having received advice it was probably unlawful. Then, they drew up procedural rules which effectively required City to be condemned without seeing the evidence on which they were being tried.
These are pretty basic flaws. The tribunal doesn't go this far - it's not its job - but it does raise the question why the rules were drawn up in the way they were.
One positive from the PL's perspective is that the tribunal has pretty much rejected the suggestion that the PL team that looks at these matters had any sort of agenda against City. They worked within the rules as they were drawn up, and the tribunal was pretty impressed that they went about their work diligently and conscientiously.
It wasn't their fault the rules were flawed.
This however brings me on to a wider point. I think I can summarise the tribunal's reasoning on a lot of the points City lost on in this way:
"The PL has a difficult job to do. It decided that it needed to do something to make sure that clubs don't go to the wire like Portsmouth, and the way it decided to do it was PSR. It could have done it in other ways but it chose this one, and that wasn't an objectively unreasonable decision. We recognise that they should be allowed a margin of appreciation in these matters. And the team they have brought in to deal with these matters don't have any sort of agenda against City. They just call it as they see it based on the evidence they have before them."
To put the same point in another way, the tribunal recognised that the regulator, the PL, has something of what you might call a margin of appreciation as to how it implements schemes which it judges to be in the best interests of the PL as a whole. The tribunal plainly gave the PL the benefit of the doubt in a number of situations, and as I say they were plainly satisfied that there was not a particular unspoken mission to target clubs from Gulf states.
The point that strikes me is this. Despite that margin of appreciation, despite being given the benefit of the doubt where they were, the PL was STILL found to have introduced rules and practice that were unlawful and unfair.
That is a major blow. The issue about interest-free loans from shareholders is a significant example of this. The rules were drawn up - deliberately - in a way that permitted some forms of subsidy from owners but prohibited others. Call me a cynic but it strikes me as rather likely that the reason for drawing this distinction might have something to do with who stood to benefit from the distinction that was being being drawn. (A clue: they play in red.)
But as I say, what I find really striking is that despite a tribunal giving the PL a pretty wide degree of latitude, MCFC still succeeded in showing the rules and the decisions made under them to be unlawful.
In football terms, the PL had a complete homer and he still gave us three penalties.
To my mind, that says all you need it to say about why the rules were drawn up the way they were.
Heads will roll for this, they have to for such a monumental disaster class but do we really want Masters out? This isn't us against him, he isnt even the enemy, he's just the fall guy for the real enemies. If he goes, somebody else takes over championing the yank cartels will instead and they might not be as dim as he appears to be. His incompetence is making things very easy for our lawyers.
Masters is to our legal team what Ten hag is to us.
We'd know about it by now and would be taking action to mitigate.Might be a stupid question but why do we think that nobody has whistleblown? Simply because nothing has come out in major news about that?
Could it not be that the PL have that whistleblower as part of their case?