Claudio Bravo

[Shaelumstash]

Absolutely. Frankly, I think there's been an embarrassing lack of knowledge about players outside of the Premiership judging from many of the comments here. Considering every big club has locked down their #1 keeper position, landing an elite #1 this late in the market who can play in Pep's system is incredible good fortune. There is no team he couldn't be #1 keeper for, none

Revisit this thread later in the year to refresh one's memory on how underrated he came in

Fair point mate, but there's probably a fair bit of naivety in Europe about the physicality of the PL.

I'm sure Bravo will do an outstanding job of playing the ball out from the back. I'm sure he will pull off some outstanding saves from 25 yard shots. I'm sure he'll save his fair share of 1 on 1s.

But how will he do defending corners against Andy Carroll? How will he do commanding his box against West Brom?

I'm not bringing out the old "Can he do it at Stoke on a wet Wednesday night" but the physicality of the Premier League is a huge difference for a goal keeper to adjust to.

David De Gea who is now probably the best keeper in the league was like a rabbit in the headlights in his first season. He was a soft touch initially and teams targeted him specifically. Gary Neville at one point was questioning whether he was cut out for the Premier League.

The difference was, De Gea was 21, he had plenty of room to develop physically. Plenty of time to get in the gym, fill out, and adapt his game.

Bravo is 33. He's played his entire career in South America and Spain. He's not going to develop physically at his age. He's probably not going to adapt his game and start dominating the box against physical teams who rely on set pieces.

It's strange how people are only talking about Hart's flaws and Bravo's strengths. If you reversed it, ask yourself who the likes of Stoke, West Brom, Hull etc would fancy targeting.

 

[Terra Passenger]

Fair point mate, but there's probably a fair bit of naivety in Europe about the physicality of the PL.

I'm sure Bravo will do an outstanding job of playing the ball out from the back. I'm sure he will pull off some outstanding saves from 25 yard shots. I'm sure he'll save his fair share of 1 on 1s.

But how will he do defending corners against Andy Carroll? How will he do commanding his box against West Brom?

I'm not bringing out the old "Can he do it at Stoke on a wet Wednesday night" but the physicality of the Premier League is a huge difference for a goal keeper to adjust to.

David De Gea who is now probably the best keeper in the league was like a rabbit in the headlights in his first season. He was a soft touch initially and teams targeted him specifically. Gary Neville at one point was questioning whether he was cut out for the Premier League.

The difference was, De Gea was 21, he had plenty of room to develop physically. Plenty of time to get in the gym, fill out, and adapt his game.

Bravo is 33. He's played his entire career in South America and Spain. He's not going to develop physically at his age. He's probably not going to adapt his game and start dominating the box against physical teams who rely on set pieces.

It's strange how people are only talking about Hart's flaws and Bravo's strengths. If you reversed it, ask yourself who the likes of Stoke, West Brom, Hull etc would fancy targeting.

Under Pep, the opposition will hardly ever have the ball. They will be under constant pressure. The likes of Carroll will end up drifting into their own half where they will try to get the ball back but will pose no threat.

Simply put, our keeper will be the 11th skilled ball player on the pitch - we outnumber the opposition, 11 to 10. We will have the ball for the majority of the time - if the ball turns over, we will immediately press to force errors Meanwhile, if the ball turns over, the opposition will have nowhere to play it - likely their forward has drifted far back to help on defense. This is the crux of Pep's system. And I think it will work spectacularly well in the PL. Witness Barca's absolute dominance over ManU in the 2011 UCL finals.

Yes we will lose games - especially early on as our team learns the system - and even later on when a team excels on the counter and we are unable to break their defense down. But overall, I like Pep's system and look forward to seeing it put into practice by our side.

 

[mosssideblue]

Coming to terms that he is probably our new keeper and joe is gone. This is most likely a good thing in pep's system, but I will be very sad to see joe leave. I will welcome bravo with open arms, but I am personally hoping he doesn't get the no 1 jersey. It would just hurt too much to see someone other than joe wearing the no 1 so soon after he leaves. I'd actually be ok if gunn took no 1, although that is unlikely. But seeing bravo wearing the 1 every week on the pitch would just upset me too much. (I understand I am being slightly ridiculous)

I'm glad you understand

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Fair point mate, but there's probably a fair bit of naivety in Europe about the physicality of the PL.

I'm sure Bravo will do an outstanding job of playing the ball out from the back. I'm sure he will pull off some outstanding saves from 25 yard shots. I'm sure he'll save his fair share of 1 on 1s.

But how will he do defending corners against Andy Carroll? How will he do commanding his box against West Brom?

I'm not bringing out the old "Can he do it at Stoke on a wet Wednesday night" but the physicality of the Premier League is a huge difference for a goal keeper to adjust to.

David De Gea who is now probably the best keeper in the league was like a rabbit in the headlights in his first season. He was a soft touch initially and teams targeted him specifically. Gary Neville at one point was questioning whether he was cut out for the Premier League.

The difference was, De Gea was 21, he had plenty of room to develop physically. Plenty of time to get in the gym, fill out, and adapt his game.

Bravo is 33. He's played his entire career in South America and Spain. He's not going to develop physically at his age. He's probably not going to adapt his game and start dominating the box against physical teams who rely on set pieces.

It's strange how people are only talking about Hart's flaws and Bravo's strengths. If you reversed it, ask yourself who the likes of Stoke, West Brom, Hull etc would fancy targeting.

he's very happy to come and catch the ball.

 

[Dax777]

Fair point mate, but there's probably a fair bit of naivety in Europe about the physicality of the PL.

I'm sure Bravo will do an outstanding job of playing the ball out from the back. I'm sure he will pull off some outstanding saves from 25 yard shots. I'm sure he'll save his fair share of 1 on 1s.

But how will he do defending corners against Andy Carroll? How will he do commanding his box against West Brom?

I'm not bringing out the old "Can he do it at Stoke on a wet Wednesday night" but the physicality of the Premier League is a huge difference for a goal keeper to adjust to.

David De Gea who is now probably the best keeper in the league was like a rabbit in the headlights in his first season. He was a soft touch initially and teams targeted him specifically. Gary Neville at one point was questioning whether he was cut out for the Premier League.

The difference was, De Gea was 21, he had plenty of room to develop physically. Plenty of time to get in the gym, fill out, and adapt his game.

Bravo is 33. He's played his entire career in South America and Spain. He's not going to develop physically at his age. He's probably not going to adapt his game and start dominating the box against physical teams who rely on set pieces.

It's strange how people are only talking about Hart's flaws and Bravo's strengths. If you reversed it, ask yourself who the likes of Stoke, West Brom, Hull etc would fancy targeting.

I think it's been an accepted fallacy here that Hart was the best goalie in the world outside of Neuer. But outside City, many have never shared this view. Like I've often said, Hart is a good goalie. One of about 10 very good goalies in the Prem. Bravo I believe is a better goalie period. Even if you ignored footskills and ability to play from the back.

On the following factors
Positioning, Reflexes, hands, Area control, shot stopping, diving and limiting errors. Bravo is probably better in most of those area. And when you add sweeper/keeper qualities to the mix the gap increases exponentially.

The fallacy here is most are pretending Bravo is simply just better with his feet, but overall inferior to Hart what has been deemed in England to be the traditional qualities of a goalkeeper. Exclude continental qualities and judge them simply on the traditional stuff and Bravo is still a better goalie. I know many of us believe Joe is going to Everton, but for my money, I don't see how he beats out Steklenburg. Who is a solid goalkeeper in his own right.

As for your question who would Stoke want? Perhaps Joe, coz he is English. And frankly I agree that if you have a good English goalie, don't go wasting Foreign slots on that position. But if you simply are asking who is better? It's probably Bravo everyday of the week. But that's not the only question team's ask when they are making these decisions.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Under Pep, the opposition will hardly ever have the ball. They will be under constant pressure. The likes of Carroll will end up drifting into their own half where they will try to get the ball back but will pose no threat.

Simply put, our keeper will be the 11th skilled ball player on the pitch - we outnumber the opposition, 11 to 10. We will have the ball for the majority of the time - if the ball turns over, we will immediately press to force errors Meanwhile, if the ball turns over, the opposition will have nowhere to play it - likely their forward has drifted far back to help on defense. This is the crux of Pep's system. And I think it will work spectacularly well in the PL. Witness Barca's absolute dominance over ManU in the 2011 UCL finals.

Yep totally on board with that mate, completely agree that is Pep's style. It's been very successful in the past and I'm sure it will be very successful in the future.

But taking West Brom as an example, they scored 13 goals from open play last season and 19 from set pieces. The don't care about having possession. They don't care about having to retreat to their half way line.

What they want is a throw in within 25 yards of the box. A free kick from anywhere within 40 yards of the box. I'm pretty sure there aren't many teams in Spain who play like that.

That's why the Premier League is different from other leagues. That's why it is the most popular league in the world - because anyone can beat anyone. We had 78% possession against Sunderland on Saturday, but in the last 15 minutes they started launching balls in to our box from 50 yards out from set pieces and we looked very vulnerable. Bravo will not have experienced that before, it's a completely different skill set. Just as De Gea found out.

United under Fergurson dominated teams too. They didn't concede many chances on the edge of their own box or got dominated for possession, that's not where De Gea looked vulnerable. He looked vulnerable against physical sides who didn't have much possession, who relied on set pieces and long balls and physicality.

 

[Shaelumstash]

I think it's been an accepted fallacy here that Hart was the best goalie in the world outside of Neuer. But outside City, many have never shared this view. Like I've often said, Hart is a good goalie. One of about 10 very good goalies in the Prem. Bravo I believe is a better goalie period. Even if you ignored footskills and ability to play from the back.

On the following factors
Positioning, Reflexes, hands, Area control, shot stopping, diving and limiting errors. Bravo is probably better in most of those area. And when you add sweeper/keeper qualities to the mix the gap increases exponentially.

The fallacy here is most are pretending Bravo is simply just better with his feet, but overall inferior to Hart what has been deemed in England to be the traditional qualities of a goalkeeper. Exclude continental qualities and judge them simply on the traditional stuff and Bravo is still a better goalie. I know many of us believe Joe is going to Everton, but for my money, I don't see how he beats out Steklenburg. Who is a solid goalkeeper in his own right.

As for your question who would Stoke want? Perhaps Joe, coz he is English. And frankly I agree that if you have a good English goalie, don't go wasting Foreign slots on that position. But if you simply are asking who is better? It's probably Bravo everyday of the week. But that's not the only question team's ask when they are making these decisions.

Sorry mate, I think you misunderstood me there. When I said who would Stoke or West Brom prefer to target I didn't mean who would they prefer to buy. I mean if they were setting up a game plan to target a keeper with long balls and roughing them up physically, who would they see as the softer touch.

I haven't seen enough of Bravo to make an informed decision about all of his goalkeeping attributes. But I have seen his physicality and he reminds me of the slight build and presence that De Gea had when he came to the PL and he found the adjustment very difficult to begin with. Nothing to do with technique or talent, but to do with physicality. It's very important for a goalkeeper in the PL.

Regarding Steklenburg, I've seen him a fair few times and I don't rate him at all. Hart is on another planet.

I think they was a time around 2012 / 2013 when Hart was in the conversation about the second best goalkeeper in the world. He has maybe not kicked on, but he is a fine goalkeeper. He made two high profile mistakes in the Euro's and the media narrative has been that he had a disasterous Euro's and he's been scapegoated for England leaving the tournament early. It happens at every tournament and this time it's Joe's turn.

I completely understand the limitation of Hart and that he isn't the perfect fit for Pep. But after 10 years of being a top keeper for us I think he at least deserves a season to try and prove himself and work on his game. Even if it's as a number 2. He has earned the right to try. That's why I think there is more to this than purely footballing reasons.

 

[Manchester_lalala]

I think it's been an accepted fallacy here that Hart was the best goalie in the world outside of Neuer. But outside City, many have never shared this view. Like I've often said, Hart is a good goalie. One of about 10 very good goalies in the Prem. Bravo I believe is a better goalie period. Even if you ignored footskills and ability to play from the back.

On the following factors
Positioning, Reflexes, hands, Area control, shot stopping, diving and limiting errors. Bravo is probably better in most of those area. And when you add sweeper/keeper qualities to the mix the gap increases exponentially.

The fallacy here is most are pretending Bravo is simply just better with his feet, but overall inferior to Hart what has been deemed in England to be the traditional qualities of a goalkeeper. Exclude continental qualities and judge them simply on the traditional stuff and Bravo is still a better goalie. I know many of us believe Joe is going to Everton, but for my money, I don't see how he beats out Steklenburg. Who is a solid goalkeeper in his own right.

As for your question who would Stoke want? Perhaps Joe, coz he is English. And frankly I agree that if you have a good English goalie, don't go wasting Foreign slots on that position. But if you simply are asking who is better? It's probably Bravo everyday of the week. But that's not the only question team's ask when they are making these decisions.

Is hart really that under appreciated on here, steklenburg better than him?! Have I been watching a keeper which has saved us points and saved us from hammerings over the past few years or am I imagining that? I'm fully aware of the reasons why he's getting replaced, but that doesn't take away the fact he's a brilliant keeper.

 

[Terra Passenger]

Under Pep, the opposition will hardly ever have the ball. They will be under constant pressure. The likes of Carroll will end up drifting into their own half where they will try to get the ball back but will pose no threat.

Simply put, our keeper will be the 11th skilled ball player on the pitch - we outnumber the opposition, 11 to 10. We will have the ball for the majority of the time - if the ball turns over, we will immediately press to force errors Meanwhile, if the ball turns over, the opposition will have nowhere to play it - likely their forward has drifted far back to help on defense. This is the crux of Pep's system. And I think it will work spectacularly well in the PL. Witness Barca's absolute dominance over ManU in the 2011 UCL finals.

Yes we will lose games - especially early on as our team learns the system - and even later on when a team excels on the counter and we are unable to break their defense down. But overall, I like Pep's system and look forward to seeing it put into practice by our side.

Yep totally on board with that mate, completely agree that is Pep's style. It's been very successful in the past and I'm sure it will be very successful in the future.

But taking West Brom as an example, they scored 13 goals from open play last season and 19 from set pieces. The don't care about having possession. They don't care about having to retreat to their half way line.

What they want is a throw in within 25 yards of the box. A free kick from anywhere within 40 yards of the box. I'm pretty sure there aren't many teams in Spain who play like that.

That's why the Premier League is different from other leagues. That's why it is the most popular league in the world - because anyone can beat anyone. We had 78% possession against Sunderland on Saturday, but in the last 15 minutes they started launching balls in to our box from 50 yards out from set pieces and we looked very vulnerable. Bravo will not have experienced that before, it's a completely different skill set. Just as De Gea found out.

United under Fergurson dominated teams too. They didn't concede many chances on the edge of their own box or got dominated for possession, that's not where De Gea looked vulnerable. He looked vulnerable against physical sides who didn't have much possession, who relied on set pieces and long balls and physicality.

Yup. Key to Pep's style is what happens after a turn over - if we cannot get the ball back quickly w'e're going to be very vulnerable.

And yes, likely we'll concede most of our goals on set pieces once we start playing well.

But against Sunderland, our offense wasn't really in sync yet. The buildup was ponderous with players unsure of where to move or to pass the ball. Also we were missing Sane, Gundogan and Kompany and de Bruyne, Silva and Aguero looked tired.

Bottom line - our offense will improve tremendously and once we get a suitable keeper, out ball retention will be even higher (probably not 78% as against Sunderland but very high nonetheless).

Our system worked against Sunderland - we dominated possession, they had few chances, and in spite of our ponderous build-up and relative lack of chances created, we deservedly won.

I don't think that this is a "it works in the Spanish league but not in the EPL" system by any stretch.

Where I think we'll struggle is against teams like Spurs or Pool that press, press, press. Any mistake we make, they get the ball, and they have the pace to punish on the counter.

 

[Dax777]

Is hart really that under appreciated on here, steklenburg better than him?! Have I been watching a keeper which has saved us points and saved us from hammerings over the past few years or am I imagining that? I'm fully aware of the reasons why he's getting replaced, but that doesn't take away the fact he's a brilliant keeper.

Not better. As good. Hart is one of many vaery good goalie's in the prem. Steklenburg is a very good Goalie. It's not a given, that Hart will beat him out for the job.