Climate Change is here and man made

This is a good place to bring in good old Piers Corbyn:
Piers is an interesting and clever man, but his insistence on a scientifically shaky short-term dataset is worrying and, as a meteorologist, fails to highlight recent natural phenomena that influence climate so strongly. He has not had much peer-reviewed work, is not a climate scientist, and crucially (for a scientist) he will not open his methods for weather prediction for scientific scrutiny (bad form in the science world!). It's a no from me for Piers Corbyn...
Thanks Shemnel, I just wondered about Corbyn's reluctance to publish his prediction methodology, surely that is part and parcel of making any scientifically based claim or is it irrelevant to his central argument?
 
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Thanks Shemnel, I just wondered about Corbyn's reluctance to publish his prediction methodology, surely that is part and parcel of making any scientifically based claim or is it irrelevant to his central argument?

hmmm, i'd say its peripheral but not irrelevant. What he argues in the video is climate and what he works in is weather prediction from sun observations (apparently as scattergun as MetOffice weather predicitions!) .

He is more than entitled to his view about both but the thing is, when you act so bolshy but refuse to open your methods for scrutiny, you begin to lose some credibility across the scientific spectrum, so while his business is not central to his climate views, it impacts upon his credibility to analyse data. (which is all made very weird by the fact he's a academically qualified physicist).
 
Like us losing a game or two, climate change and the arguments surrounding it allows folk to become almost hysterical.
 
On radio 4 this morning the presenter virtually forced the environmental expert to mention climate change even thought was completely irrelevant. The stats for severe weather events show that the number has been declining in recent years not increasing.
 
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Apologies in advance for a long answer:

For me this is Politics vs Science. I don't feel these two things are good partners.

The Global Pause, as highlighted by @Jim Tolmie's Underpants , is a good place to start. The Global Pause is the apparent flattening of changes in average global temperatures in the period 1998 to 2013, much to the delight of some and shock of others, indicating (on face value) that anthropogenic forcing has not had an effect on global warming as of late:

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1. Tiny bit increase here 2. Pretty much no change in this interpretation

Nature ran a couple of specials on the hiatus and many media publications have run with the story and even, despite what some say about them, the IPCC did acknowledge and include the term 'hiatus' in their 5th Assessment Report of 2014. (more on IPCC in a bit).

These are some of my issues with the global pause graphs:
  • A pause on a short term scale such as this is not a fair comparison to multi-decadal climate science
  • decade scale trends dominated by natural fluctuation (Markotze & Foster, 2015 and others) do not provide grounds for revising global opinion on global multidecadal temperature trends (Risbey, 2015)
  • There is no real evidence that these graphs are statistically significant. Foster and Rahmstorf (2010) statistically analysed 5 quasi-global temperature datasets (GISS, NCDC, RSS, CRU and UAH) and found no statistical evidence for slowdown (in this period).
  • a lack of bias correction
  • There are no error bars, no confidence margins, no studies of relative error
  • The RSS data is reliant on the old NOAA-15 satellite which has a decaying orbit to which corrections are applied using a model.

My issues with using these graphs as argument deciding statements of truth:
  • They are simplistic and do not attempt to acknowledge any short comings
  • They use one, possibly faulty/out of date dataset (instead of scientific calibration of up to 5)
  • They badly misrepresent a climate science (studying short term temperature fluctuations against a long term science)
  • People use this data as gospel truth as they think it is 'raw' and true, forgetting it has been corrected, as ALL satellite data is corrected, but also corrected due to ageing technologies. and this is NOAA data who appear to be a bad-apple for a lot of folk.
  • There is no smoothing of data noise
  • @lazza said it perfectly that anyone can throw a graph of anything at someone and purport it to tell the truth. in climate science this rings very true.

Possible explanations for the pause:
  • As mentioned, natural events such as earthquakes, el nino & la nina and solar variations.(Markotze & Foster, 2015 and others)
  • zooming in to a 'useful' period of time
  • huge build ups of energy in oceans;
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This is a good place to bring in good old Piers Corbyn:



Piers is an interesting and clever man, but his insistence on a scientifically shaky short-term dataset is worrying and, as a meteorologist, fails to highlight recent natural phenomena that influence climate so strongly. He has not had much peer-reviewed work, is not a climate scientist, and crucially (for a scientist) he will not open his methods for weather prediction for scientific scrutiny (bad form in the science world!). It's a no from me for Piers Corbyn.

And next to @Jim Tolmie's Underpants assertions using the 1975 NAS graph:



It's an interesting one to bring up, written by Peter Gwynne it caused a stir at the time and is still used to this day. However, a cover up and a scam i would say it is not;

Peter Gwynne retracted his article and methods used therein for the above graph in December 2014, after agreeing the weight of evidence was not properly addressed. Whether you think he was originally dodgy and has come clean or originally was clean and has been bought or has, like a good science writer, had a decent stab and then manfully retracted his ideas, is up to you :)

And so to the long term stuff:

long term trends do show increases, couple with the recent cooling/pause, the cooling pause is included.

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NASA MetOffice




i think there are some fairly wild claims there, but youre welcome to them. There is a wealth of scientific papers out there that explain why you must correct models; performing multivariate regression and principle component analysis allow you to remove natural phenomena such as earthquakes which are helpful to neither serious pro or anti anthropogenic climate change scientists. have a google about.

Main Conclusion:

The variables and the science are baffling. everything is highly interconnected and to say it is simply "this" or "that" is just not helpful or even remotely near the truth. 1000s of scientists are still teasing out the effects of the oceans, the sun, clouds, surface temps, troposphere temps, effects of satellite orbits, mathematical models, model forcing, natural events, greenhouse gases, aerosols, particulate matter, etc ETC!!!! the list goes on and on and on....... How do we explain global cooling is producing the hottest years on record? who knows.

Sadly that doesnt get us to an answer. Someone earlier said that we will never get an answer in our lifetime so we can say what we like. Well, for the purpose of scientific discovery i hope science continues to build and be as rigorous and open to criticism and interrogation to help find an answer. Im not going to tell you what I personally think is currently happening though.

The Politics:

oh the politics. For all the arguments of IPCC corruption, government control via climate change and profiteering on carbon credit schemes, there are counter claims for hydro-carbon funded skeptics, deliberate nobbling of climate change science and capitalist driven denial empires.

How someone can confidently claim one evil exists and that the other does not is beyond me. However, i would like to say there are very believable kernels of truth in both.

The IPCC, as alluded to by other posters, is a bit political (but to say it's not scientific at all is going a bit far). I have no doubt in my mind that governments/corporations (governmental-industrial nexuses) across the world are attempting to manipulate and profit from this, using what they see to be the weight of evidence (in favour of anthro climate change) to drive their own agendas and perhaps, to a degree, control development in the developing world. Carbon trading is madness and a see through scam. Yet how can governments work towards reducing emissions, particularly of methane, nitrogen oxides, PM10 and sulfur hexafluorides, and not appear all controlling? And how can people confidently say the petro-chemical industry, which face it has a little bit of a dubious working practice, has no say in climate change denial? two sides of a very big coin.

i like to speculate on these things but prefer the science. though i see it, in everyday media and government speeches and policies, there are agendas, as plain as the nose on your face, they exist, with very little scientific scrutiny.

What's it all about?

who knows? i certainly don't. And many a good scientist will/should not claim to either. The predictions and claims are made by evidence, backed up by many peer reviewed journals and statistical studies. This goes for both pro and anti anthropogenic climate change. From my experience it would seem the majority of sound peer-reviewed science is towards the existence of global warming and a proportion of that towards anthropogenic climate change. Why this is, i will not dare to say :)

I hope someone got something out of these ramblings.


I was just about to post that myself
 
You make yourself look a dick, admit to knowing nothing about the subject in question, ignore my request for a serious discussion and then try and explain your childish behaviour by telling me you're dyslexic. Like i said, pathetic.

NB. Other slightly more sweary and agressive people on the internet with a penchant for cruelty/mischeif/bantz/trolling might use this opportunity to regale us witht their opinion that dyslexia does not exist. Not me though.
Tbh I don't give a fuck what you think but I'd like to thank you for making me realise how many cunts there are on here. If you don't prescribe to the current left wing view of the world you're on a hiding to nothing, even one of the moderating team was bemoaning that some of the posters weren't towing the 'party line'. No discussion no nothing, I wish you well with your 'fucking this and bollocks to everything ' and your snide comments. I'd love to know how you get on on in the real world or if indeed you do get on, and with that I wish you and the rest of the cunts a fond farewell :0)
 
Warming and cooling temps are the norm on earth it's called weather
But give some charts to a politician or a tree hugger and they will tell you more tax on oil co2 etc then dismantle all coal power stations will make things better and save the world
I would rather have a bit of smog than live next door to a nuclear reactor
What a load of bollocks
 
In that case why are wood chip burners considered an acceptable environmental way of producing energy?

They are a more environmentally acceptable way of producing energy than, say, coal-burners. Trees absorb atmospheric carbon dioxide while growing and release it back to the atmosphere when burnt, so the net effect is zero increase of atmospheric CO2. Burning coal on the other hand releases carbon that has been out of the atmospheric carbon-cycle for millions of years, so the net effect is an increase in atmospheric CO2. In addition, the extraction of coal is in itself an environmentally damaging process, as it takes a lot of energy (i.e. fuel) to get the coal from the ground to your stove.

Just love the use of big corporations as way of perpetuating the man made climate change sham, it boils down to anti capitalism and a way to stop third world countries using their own natural resources just like the developed world did. Keeping the poor, poor!

It's no sham! Yes, politically, it could be seen as anti-capitalist, but there is not doubt quite extensive lobbying of Governments by industries that would be harmed by any regulations to combat climate change. Similarly, the argument from developing nations that the developed nations already made themselves rich by exploiting the environment is very real, and to be honest, it's a very good point. What's the answer? I don't know, but it is certainly not "carry on as you are".

Warming and cooling temps are the norm on earth it's called weather
But give some charts to a politician or a tree hugger and they will tell you more tax on oil co2 etc then dismantle all coal power stations will make things better and save the world
I would rather have a bit of smog than live next door to a nuclear reactor
What a load of bollocks

Warm days and cold days, yes, that is called weather. But climate is something entirely different, and has immense impact on the current balance of many, many things, globally. Although it might seem ridiculous to think that any of these things is important (after all, we can live in Greenland and we can live in the Sahara, so an increase in global temperatures of 2C makes no difference, right?), it is the balance of these many natural cycles and environments that have allowed human civilisation to develop in the way it has. As I said in an earlier post, our planet will survive (you could say that the Earth couldn't care less what we do), and humans will almost certainly be able to adapt to a radically different planet, but it is foolish to think that we will be able to carry on living in the way we do now if climate continues to change at the rate it has been doing, and the long-term costs of sorting this out once it happens will make the current economic proposals seem a drop in the ever-increasing oceans!

And smog is nothing to do with it - that's pollution, not climate change.
 
NASA are completely impartial of course.....

You can argue that no-one is impartial in this. Both sides have an agenda (yes, really, a proper agenda), so you need to look past that, and look at what the science actually says.
And the science actually says: global warming is real, and is almost certainly caused by the significant increase in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, which in turn are almost certainly mostly down to human activities in the last 150 years.

Another common sceptic's argument above is that the predictions were all wrong, so how can we believe any of this.

But this again is very easy indeed to explain. Climate science is a new discipline, and the study of climate change only really started in any seriousness in the early 1980s, and when the early "global warming" models were first postulated, they were based on very simple models. The more we have studied the Earth's climate, the more we understand how some of the extremely complex interactions come about, but even now, there is a huge amount we don't know. Imagine a freeze frame of a golf-ball 0.1s after being struck by a golfer; you know the ball's been hit and roughly the direction it is going, but you're asked to predict exactly where the ball lands, and where it will then roll to. That's what the first global warming predictions were trying to do, only they were trying make a prediction without actually knowing the club used, the speed or direction of the wind or the lie of the land where the ball would land. We're now perhaps at a freeze frame 1s after the ball was hit, so we have a much better idea which way it's going and can make a better prediction, but one thing for sure: the current prediction is still wrong. So it is for climate change - I am absolutely 100% certain that the current models can still not predict exactly what will happen, but they can predict with some certainty that the climate is changing and will continue to change if we do not do something about it.
 
Warming and cooling temps are the norm on earth it's called weather
But give some charts to a politician or a tree hugger and they will tell you more tax on oil co2 etc then dismantle all coal power stations will make things better and save the world
I would rather have a bit of smog than live next door to a nuclear reactor
What a load of bollocks

Yes, your post certainly was.

Do you think you know something about the climate that NASA scientist's don't?

You're also confusing weather with climate by the way.
 
Tbh I don't give a fuck what you think but I'd like to thank you for making me realise how many cunts there are on here. If you don't prescribe to the current left wing view of the world you're on a hiding to nothing, even one of the moderating team was bemoaning that some of the posters weren't towing the 'party line'. No discussion no nothing, I wish you well with your 'fucking this and bollocks to everything ' and your snide comments. I'd love to know how you get on on in the real world or if indeed you do get on, and with that I wish you and the rest of the cunts a fond farewell :0)
If you think we're all cunts, and most of us are, you know what you can do right? I'll remind you. Fuck right off.
 
Yes, your post certainly was.

Do you think you know something about the climate that NASA scientist's don't?

You're also confusing weather with climate by the way.
Things change naturally man. Man made climate change is a total myth.
 
You're very welcome to come and spend the day with me if you wanna know how i 'get on in the real world'. I'd show you my beautiful house (all paid for), lovely wife and family, how to bring up a 3 year old grandson or how to run your own successful business. Then we could go to the pub and meet some of my many friends, although the swearing might put you off them a bit. Hell i'll even pay your bus fare as i've got plenty of spare cash knocking about as well.
I'm off now to go and erect a community marquee so the locals can have a nice xmas feed and drink they otherwise couldn't afford. I've got a meeting with the council urban regeneration team after that but i'll be free around 3ish if you'd like to pop over. You could call me a **** to my face as well then and see how that works out in 'real life'.
 
Tbh I don't give a fuck what you think but I'd like to thank you for making me realise how many cunts there are on here. If you don't prescribe to the current left wing view of the world you're on a hiding to nothing, even one of the moderating team was bemoaning that some of the posters weren't towing the 'party line'. No discussion no nothing, I wish you well with your 'fucking this and bollocks to everything ' and your snide comments. I'd love to know how you get on on in the real world or if indeed you do get on, and with that I wish you and the rest of the cunts a fond farewell :0)
 

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