Colin Pitchfork

[Mr Kobayashi]

As I said I couldn't care less whether you or anybody else thinks it's right, these fuckers want putting six feet under.

I wasn't debating the merits of right and wrong just pointing out the reality to you.

You can have your emotional response and I don't dispute your right to do so, or to have opposing views to me. In actual fact, the idea that a certain subset of criminals deserve violence or death as punishment isn't something I would dispute. But for a whole number of logical reasons I don't believe such a state policy serves the greater good.

Priti Patel was pro-death penalty when she was just a backbench MP. Despite being the cruelest home secretary in recent memory she hasn't said anything about CP, and disowned the views she shared on QT (in 2011) , in 2016.

It isn't coming back, even populist dictators Putin and Erdoğan haven't gone back to it.

 

[paulchapo]

I wasn't debating the merits of right and wrong just pointing out the reality to you.

You can have your emotional response and I don't dispute your right to do so, or to have opposing views to me. In actual fact, the idea that a certain subset of criminals deserve violence or death as punishment isn't something I would dispute. But for a whole number of logical reasons I don't believe such a state policy serves the greater good.

Priti Patel was pro-death penalty when she was just a backbench MP. Despite being the cruelest home secretary in recent memory she hasn't said anything about CP, and disowned the views she shared on QT (in 2011) , in 2016.

It isn't coming back, even populist dictators Putin and Erdoğan haven't gone back to it.

Oh I know fully it isn't coming back but something has to change. A system that thinks somebody like Pitchfork has a right and/or is safe to be released back into society is wrong.

 

[crublue1]

Oh I know fully it isn't coming back but something has to change. A system that thinks somebody like Pitchfork has a right and/or is safe to be released back into society is wrong.

The prison system is about rehabilitation, it's not for the likes of this scumbag, who will never be rehabilitated, so why even waste our resources on him? I'd rather him get the needle and then spend the saved cash on the prisoners who are more worthy and want help.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

The prison system is about rehabilitation, it's not for the likes of this scumbag, who will never be rehabilitated, so why even waste our resources on him? I'd rather him get the needle and then spend the saved cash on the prisoners who are more worthy and want help.

It’s not actually, the primary purpose of sending people to prison in England and Wales is punishment. And that's fair enough, but we have to acknowledge that harsher punishments and poor conditions inside prisons encouraging reoffending when people get out.

If we wanted to rehabilitate people we wouldn't lock them up for increasing longer periods of time and expect it not to have a detrimental effect on the ability to live on the outside again.

Prisoner rehabilitation does not work, says former prisons boss

Sir Martin Narey says focus should be on treating inmates with decency and dignity

www.google.com

Whether Colin Pitchfork can be rehabilitated is another issue, someone who admitted to exposing himself to over a thousand women, raped and murdered two fifteen year-old girls and diagnosed as a sexual psychopath seems to be beyond rehabilitation.

 

[crublue1]

It’s not actually, the primary purpose of sending people to prison in England and Wales is punishment. And that's fair enough, but we have to acknowledge that harsher punishments and poor conditions inside prisons encouraging reoffending when people get out.

If we wanted to rehabilitate people we wouldn't lock them up for increasing longer periods of time and expect it not to have a detrimental effect on the ability to live on the outside again.

Prisoner rehabilitation does not work, says former prisons boss

Sir Martin Narey says focus should be on treating inmates with decency and dignity

www.google.com

Whether Colin Pitchfork can be rehabilitated is another issue, someone who admitted to exposing himself to over a thousand women, raped and murdered two fifteen year-old girls and diagnosed as a sexual psychopath seems to be beyond rehabilitation.

With respect, prison isn't a punishment. 3 meals a day in a warm environment isn't a hardship.
It should be, and it was designed to be so, but prison reforms over the years have thankfully changed so the guilty can change. I applaud that.
Prisoners get every opportunity to educate themselves, learn skills, and prepare for outside life, all at our expense.
Those that reoffend should not be given a second chance, and those that choose to rape and murder shouldn't even be given a first chance.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

With respect, prison isn't a punishment. 3 meals a day in a warm environment isn't a hardship.
It should be, and it was designed to be so, but prison reforms over the years have thankfully changed so the guilty can change. I applaud that.
Prisoners get every opportunity to educate themselves, learn skills, and prepare for outside life, all at our expense.
Those that reoffend should not be given a second chance, and those that choose to rape and murder shouldn't even be given a first chance.

That’s not really true though is it. The punishment is meant to be the deprivation of liberty, although in this country it is politically toxic to be seen to be soft on prisoners so we don't improve conditions on the prison estate, and the conditions become the punishment.

Full of drugs, violence and overcrowded.

Do you actually believe that part about prison reform or are you comparing them against Victorian era prisons?

 

[crublue1]

That’s not really true though is it. The punishment is meant to be the deprivation of liberty, although in this country it is politically toxic to be seen to be soft on prisoners so we don't improve conditions on the prison estate, and the conditions become the punishment.

Full of drugs, violence and overcrowded.

Do you actually believe that part about prison reform or are you comparing them against Victorian era prisons?

Yes of course I believe it, or I wouldn't have posted it.
Where would you suggest I take the time line from?
I hadn't actually given much thought to the dates, but I think our modern, let's say, prison system is very much an opportunistic institution for the offender.
I've already said that I encourage offenders to educate and potentially better themselves, what I object to is chasing lost causes.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Yes of course I believe it, or I wouldn't have posted it.
Where would you suggest I take the time line from?
I hadn't actually given much thought to the dates, but I think our modern, let's say, prison system is very much an opportunistic institution for the offender.
I've already said that I encourage offenders to educate and potentially better themselves, what I object to is chasing lost causes.

Because it doesn't stand up to the facts.

England and Wales jail ‘shameful’ numbers of people, says report | Prisons and probation | The Guardian

‘Addiction to imprisonment’ marked by overuse of short sentences and botched reforms

amp.theguardian.com

We lock up more people than any other country in Western Europe, E&W is only beaten into 2nd by Scotland. And prison sentences have been increasing for the last three decades.

Europe incarceration rate by country 2022 | Statista

In 2021 Turkey had the highest incarceration rate among European countries, at 355 prisoners per 100,000 inhabitants, followed by Georgia, which had an incarceration of 237.

www.statista.com

If we really did give them all the opportunities, why do we not have a system more like Norway or Finland?

And a prison rate (per 100,000 of the population) more than double both of those countries.

 

[crublue1]

Well I guess, and I'm no expert, that we lock up more people because we have more criminals that need locking up?
What would be your solution?

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Well I guess, and I'm no expert, that we lock up more people because we have more criminals that need locking up?
What would be your solution?

Europe: Crime Index by Country 2021

www.numbeo.com

We have a comparable crime rate to Italy, but lock up about 40% more than them.

Italy | World Prison Brief

www.prisonstudies.org

We have people on short term sentences in and out of prison because they commit offences such as shoplifting to fuel drug addictions. A majority of the prison population has mental health conditions, much have them learning difficulties and substance abuse issues.

My solution is more joined up thinking between government agencies, children's services (teenagers in care or who have recently left are much more likely to offend), probation, justice system and prisons.

And more community based programmes and supporting people in the community better- the man he is talking about in this clip is someone who we shouldn’t want in prison, someone who should be living in a therapeutic environment in supported accommodation.



But it all costs money (although it would save more in the long term, and improve society immeasurably) and it doesn't win votes from people who favour simplistic solutions (see Brexit and send them all back) so it will never happen.